Miss Holocaust Survivor......the winner is????

Castiel · 30 Jun 2012 at 22:39

bhavv said:
I cant answer the question when I have no idea what you are asking me. Id expect a person of your philosophical position to be able to understand the importance of terms being defined before a question about them can be answered.

If you want a direct answer to the question you asked however, that would be argumentum ad verecundiam.

I asked a direct question....I will ask again, are those that voice the exact the same criticism as I have, also antisemitic?

It is a simple question....the terms are straight forward.....I have used the words macabre, distasteful and inappropiate and you used that as justification to call me an antisemite.......and you again contend that by using them in relation to the pageant I therefore have an Antisemite agenda....so if that is true of me, should it not be true of others.....

It is not an argument to authority as I am giving my own opinion that simply echoes others, I am not saying I must be right because of them or pointing to them to say you are wrong to think otherwise, I have already said your (and others) opinion are equally valid......I am asking you however, if the same accusations you made about me equally apply to others who voice the same criticisms considering they hold similar opinions?

Or is it simply you attempting to badger and attack me personally, which is against forum rules is it not?

bhavv said:
No not really, just your posts in this one thread have that agenda.

So it's just me that is an Antisemite for agreeing with the some of the people in the article?

Or are you simply attacking me personally with no justification.....again?

bhavv · 30 Jun 2012 at 22:47

Unfortunately I havnt been able to read every comment and opinion on this matter by the absolute nobodies that you named, and I havnt been able to debate their opinions with them.

So it's just me that is an Antisemite for agreeing with the some of the people in the article?

Nope, not at all. Thats not what I said. Please tell me though, why was this article of such importance to you that you had to post it on this forum?

I've already clearly explained to you several times now that I was referring to comments such as:

AH.Tempest said:
Because when lots of people want to do something it proves that it's a good idea! ... much like say ... a holocaust? ... wait what?

Castiel said:
I assume that would include Neo-nazis peacefully celebrating the millions murdered in death camps also......if they so chose.

As being anti semite due to their use as a direct comparison to this event.

Castiel said:
Why don't you actually read the thread..then you will know why some find it macabre.....if you read the article, which was by the way reported in the international press, you will also see that many Israeli's and Holocaust Victim Groups, including the largest group in Israel called it macabre.....

I've read the thread, people simply throwing that word at the incident doesnt give any reason for why they are using it, other than simply copying it from the article.

What exactly is possibly 'Macabre' about 12 still living women attending an event held in their honour for having survived the holocaust?

Macabre - having death as a subject : comprising or including a personalized representation of death.

The topic of the event was not about 'death', it was about very much the opposite, 'survival', and a celebration of the lives of these women who are still currently alive.

Castiel · 30 Jun 2012 at 22:55

bhavv said:
Unfortunately I havnt been able to read every comment and opinion on this matter by the absolute nobodies that you named, and I havnt been able to debate their opinions with them.

So you did not read the article?

bhavv said:
Nope, not at all. Thats not what I said. Please tell me though, why was this article of such importance to you that you had to post it on this forum?

So I am not an Antisemite?

I thought it was interesting to see whether people thought as I did about the story....the story was on the google news page and as the OP asks:

Castiel said:
Is it me, or does this seem to be rather macabre and in very poor taste?

While it might have the best intentions, it certainly seems inappropriate at the very least.

it is very clear why I posted the article, and it is clear that I have no antisemitic views.....I clearly said it might have the best intentions, but it was the delivery that I found questionable...

Is it not true Bhavv that you just thought you could attack me personally with impunity, and you have concocted this entire house of card Antisemite argument in an attempt to pursue your continuing vendetta?

Castiel · 30 Jun 2012 at 23:01

bhavv said:
I've already clearly explained to you several times now that I was referring to comments such as:

As being anti semite due to their use as a direct comparison to this event.

However, as explained none of those comments referred to the article or the pageant, but only as an example of the illogical justification of your initial argument.

Specifically this statement:

bhavv said:
Maybe because adults should have an unbelievable right to peacefully assemble and celebrate for any reason.

So I asked the question if that included such things as Neo-nazis celebrating the Holocaust.

This was pointed put to you, by me and by several others.....if you thought it was being anti Jewish then as I clearly explained it was not the intention and you misunderstood the context for the references, for to continue to call me names is somewhat unjustified.

Would you say the comments like this:

I can kind of see this turning into a new ITV reality show - 'Holocaust Survivor's Survival Camp' or something ...

were anti-Semitic?

bhavv · 30 Jun 2012 at 23:02

So you did not read the article?

OFC I did, but I cant exactly debate the issue with those people can I?

Lets take this quote:

"It sounds totally macabre to me," said Colette Avital, chairwoman of Israel's leading Holocaust survivors' umbrella group. "I am in favour of enriching lives, but a one-time pageant masquerading [survivors] with beautiful clothes is not what is going to make their lives more meaningful."

I have asked the following time and time again - How is a celebratory event for 'SURVIVORS' of any such thing possibly 'MACABRE'??? The fact that the event was dedicated to SURVIVORS makes the word Macabre simply incorrect to use.

Can someone please answer this?

Castiel said:
but only as an example of the illogical justification of your initial argument.

My defense of peoples freedom to peacefully assemble was illogical? No.

bitslice · 30 Jun 2012 at 23:05

bhavv said:
Anti Semetism.
Not you, but people who could possibly find it 'offensive'.

bhavv said:
Unfortunately I havnt been able to read every comment and opinion on this matter by the absolute nobodies that you named, and I havnt been able to debate their opinions with them.

really?, let me help you with the first link on Google...

“It sounds totally macabre to me’’
Colette Avital, chairwoman of Israel’s leading Holocaust survivors’ umbrella group

http://articles.boston.com/2012-06-28/news/32459349_1_holocaust-survivors-beauty-contest-colette-avital

"I think it's awful. I think it's something a decent person shouldn't even think about."
Lily Haber, the daughter of a Holocaust survivor who runs an organization that helps survivors in Poland,

Miss Holocaust Survivor Pageant: Inappropriate Or Celebration Of Life? [PHOTO]

The Miss Holocaust Survivor pageant, in which Holocaust survivors ranging in age from 74 to 97 competed for the title in Israel, has been criticized as macabre by some and as a celebration of life -- and a triumph over evil -- by others.

www.ibtimes.com

"It leaves a bad taste. Holocaust survivors should be above all this."
Gal Mor, editor of an Israeli blog

http://jezebel.com/Gal-mor/

Shocking, Jews being anti-semitic! :eek:

bhavv · 30 Jun 2012 at 23:11

bitslice said:
really?, let me help you with the first link on Google...

“It sounds totally macabre to me’’
Colette Avital, chairwoman of Israel’s leading Holocaust survivors’ umbrella group

http://articles.boston.com/2012-06-28/news/32459349_1_holocaust-survivors-beauty-contest-colette-avital

"I think it's awful. I think it's something a decent person shouldn't even think about."
Lily Haber, the daughter of a Holocaust survivor who runs an organization that helps survivors in Poland,

Miss Holocaust Survivor Pageant: Inappropriate Or Celebration Of Life? [PHOTO]

The Miss Holocaust Survivor pageant, in which Holocaust survivors ranging in age from 74 to 97 competed for the title in Israel, has been criticized as macabre by some and as a celebration of life -- and a triumph over evil -- by others.

www.ibtimes.com

"It leaves a bad taste. Holocaust survivors should be above all this."
Gal Mor, editor of an Israeli blog

http://jezebel.com/Gal-mor/

Shocking, Jews being anti-semitic!

No, those three people are simply being illogical over the use of a Pageant for this event. They equate it directly to a 'physical beauty' pageant, not realizing or understanding the metaphorical use of the pageant. Its also a rather incorrect sweeping statement to say that 'holocaust survivors should be against this', these people seem to not understand that the event was actually a positive celebration of the lives of the women involved, very similar to any celebration for war survivors / veterans.

Its also nothing new when such news sources display a strong illogical bias in their opinions, and most people reading them simply agree with it because they cant think for themselves.

Castiel · 30 Jun 2012 at 23:16

bhavv said:
OFC I did, but I cant exactly debate the issue with those people can I?

Lets take this quote:

I have asked the following time and time again - How is a celebratory event for 'SURVIVORS' of any such thing possibly 'MACABRE'??? The fact that the event was dedicated to SURVIVORS makes the word Macabre simply incorrect to use.

Do you know who Colette Avital is?

and is she anti-Semitic to think so?

bhavv said:
My defence of peoples freedom to peacefully assemble was illogical? No.

No, it was the point that it was somehow not acceptable to be critical of their reasons or the presentation of their freedom to assemble and celebrate.......like you said "for whatever reason"...

hence I asked the questions, very valid ones that had no anti Jewish agenda whatsoever...in fact my criticisms are firmly based in my belief that the holocaust was one of the most horrific and shameful things the human race has ever done to itself, and that is why I share some of the unease at the way the pageant appears to have cheapened it with others.

I am not saying that everyone has to agree with me, or that those that do not are anti Semites or anything other than having a valid but different opinion (I specifically asked for those opinions in the OP)...but it doesn't justify your accusations or your personal attacks on my character Bhavv...not at all.

bitslice · 30 Jun 2012 at 23:17

bhavv said:
No, those three people are simply being illogical over the use of a Pageant for this event.

So if Jews directly related to this period of history are condemning this and Castiel is vaguely agreeing with them to a lessor extent, then he is at the most 'illogical' and not 'anti Semitic' as you keep trying to say.

Why don't you find a Jew who agrees with this (other than the organisers), because you appear to be going against the popular Jewish opinion on this subject.

Personally I think the Jewish chairwoman of the Holocaust survivors group is well qualified to comment on this as being "macabre"

bhavv · 30 Jun 2012 at 23:21

bitslice said:
Why don't you find a Jew who agrees with this (other than the organisers), because you appear to be going against the popular Jewish opinion on this subject.

Why dont you make a poll or something instead? The opinion of just 3 people is not a popular majority opinion. I believe that most people in Israel would have enjoyed this event.

bitslice said:
Personally I think the Jewish chairwoman of the Holocaust survivors group is well qualified to comment on this as being "macabre"

I dont think that holding a personal opinion on any event such as this requires any 'qualifications', and I'm not sure that this person, nor all the people using the word macabre even understand what it means. Its a case of one person having used the word, so everyone else copying it without thinking, or even being able to explain why they think that.

bitslice · 30 Jun 2012 at 23:23

bhavv said:
I believe that most people in Israel would have enjoyed this event.

Sure...
go find one who wasn't involved

It's not like you have been given the views of the three most qualified Jewish commentators or anything...

And answer my point about Castiel being, at the most illogical and not anti Semitic, you can't just assassinate someone's character because you think it makes a good debating point.

bhavv · 30 Jun 2012 at 23:27

bitslice said:
Sure...
go find one who wasn't involved

How about the fact this isnt even an issue in Israel, and that its only being reported as negative by the rest of the world? Feel free to read post 95, ofc I have no idea what race or religion people who are commenting are.

Also how come no one has answered this yet:

bhavv said:
I have asked the following time and time again - How is a celebratory event for 'SURVIVORS' of any such thing possibly 'MACABRE'??? The fact that the event was dedicated to SURVIVORS makes the word Macabre simply incorrect to use.

Can someone please answer this?

Castiel · 30 Jun 2012 at 23:31

bhavv said:
Why dont you make a poll or something instead? The opinion of just 3 people is not a popular majority opinion. I believe that most people in Israel would have enjoyed this event.

The general opinion in the Jewish Press and social media is one that goes from mild distaste to outright offence..

Personally it isn't even the beauty part of the pageant part of it that I find that bad, as you said it was only a small part of the overall way the contest was decided.....it is the "who had it worse" when it come to the personal and collective trauma and horrific experiences each of these women suffered that I find a little inappropriate....it creates a competition out of their suffering, almost giving them a hierarchy of suffering that puts one persons suffering above another's.....this is nothing new to be fair, but it is still inappropriate to promote such ideas.

I fully support the celebration of these women's lives, but it is not a competition to be won, it is about the one of the worst, if not the worst human tragedy in modern times and I feel that turning that into a competition to be won is inappropriate and their are better ways to make sure people never forget.

bhavv said:
How about the fact this isnt even an issue in Israel, and that its only being reported as negative by the rest of the world? Feel free to read post 95, ofc I have no idea what race or religion people who are commenting are:

It is in fact the leading news story in the Israeli press......

bhavv · 30 Jun 2012 at 23:33

Show me one link from the Israeli press then. Also answer the 'macabre' question, or are you incapable of doing that?

Redz · 30 Jun 2012 at 23:34

bhavv said:
I have asked the following time and time again - How is a celebratory event for 'SURVIVORS' of any such thing possibly 'MACABRE'??? The fact that the event was dedicated to SURVIVORS makes the word Macabre simply incorrect to use.

Can someone please answer this?

Yes, you are correct. A pageant to celebrate survivors is quite clearly celebrating life, as in, they survived the holocaust and didn't die in it. the word "macabre" is usually associated with death. So yes, it is an inappropriate term to use to describe the event.

bitslice · 30 Jun 2012 at 23:36

bitslice said:
And answer my point about Castiel being, at the most illogical and not anti Semitic, you can't just assassinate someone's character because you think it makes a good debating point.

Still refusing to answer?

bhavv · 30 Jun 2012 at 23:36

Redz said:
Yes, you are correct. A pageant to celebrate survivors is quite clearly celebrating life, as in, they survived the holocaust and didn't die in it. the word "macabre" is usually associated with death. So yes, it is an inappropriate term to use to describe the event.

Thank you. I dont think Castiel will want to learn or ever admit that he is wrong though.

Collider · 30 Jun 2012 at 23:40

Many people who died in the camps were not Jews. Many survivors are not not / never were Israeli. This is not to say of course that Jews were not the largest group who died in it, but the holocaust isn't about Israel..it wasn't even founded when it started after all. I really do fail to see how finding a Miss Holocaust pageant distasteful and demeaning to the lessons we should all take from the holocaust anti semetic.

I think that's nonsense and it seems like arguing over something for the sake of making it about something else.

I have asked the following time and time again - How is a celebratory event for 'SURVIVORS' of any such thing possibly 'MACABRE'??? The fact that the event was dedicated to SURVIVORS makes the word Macabre simply incorrect to use.

Can someone please answer this?

Do you honestly need someone to answer that and do you really have no idea why people would find turning the holocaust into a pageant a little bit macabre and actually in some ways rather offensive? Some people, who are not from Israel and of various faiths (or not) also take the holocaust very seriously indeed and would prefer not to see it treated in this slightly humiliating and belittling way. Scoring survivors on who has the best story? Seriously...millions of people died and this is what it comes to? And that isn't slightly weird? I can't see why anyone finds it not weird.

The issue shouldn't be belittled in this way, in my view anyway and this sort of thing demeans the amazing stories these people have to tell.

If this is the only way they can find in Israel to be able to tell them well that's just really very sad and a verdict on modern times rather than them.

Holocaust survivors should be celebrated and their stories listened to but they have too much to say for it to have to come to a reality TV pageant where if you were in one camp gets score higher than another.

bitslice · 30 Jun 2012 at 23:42

bhavv said:
Show me one link from the Israeli press then.

yawn,
first hit on google

http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world...geant-crowns-miss-holocaust-survivor-1.447737

bhavv · 30 Jun 2012 at 23:42

They havnt turned the 'holocaust' into a pageant in the slightest bit whatsoever though, they have made a pageant for 'holocaust SURVIVORS'.

This is a celebration of the lives of the actual people that SURVIVED the holocaust, it is NOT a celebration of the 'holocaust' itself.

A celebration of survival and life cannot possibly be macabre.

bitslice said:
yawn,
first hit on google

http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world...geant-crowns-miss-holocaust-survivor-1.447737

Double yawn, this is just a copy paste article, or the canadian press article is a copy paste of this. No individual opinions other than those of the same three people are being written about. Are there any jewish forums where this article is being discussed?