Patients dying needlessly

The daily mail quote is amusing, interesting what they think is sensational.
Some woman had to have an Op, to remove a bit of a forceps after it broke during a procedure. How terrible... Its not like mechanical things fail over time, what with all our perfect buildings, and cars that never need replaced. These things happen.
Thats not a 'never' event, as it will happen, you do the same thing over and over in many sites around the country, eventually a piece of equipment will fail on you. Its the daily mail and madness like it which lead people to believe these things should never occur.
 
On the other hand the NHS do some bloody good work. The only metalwork left in me are the clips holding my incision closed.
 
Problems within huge organisations are generally not down to the "workers" aka doctor/nurses. Its generally the system as a whole.
 
Some woman had to have an Op, to remove a bit of a forceps after it broke during a procedure. How terrible... Its not like mechanical things fail over time, what with all our perfect buildings, and cars that never need replaced. These things happen.
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Not a never event no but a terrible and extremely unusual and rare one regardless.


Surgical forceps are usually made out of stainless steel, carbon steel, or titanium. High-grade materials which help prevent problems with the instruments, such as rust or bending, from interfering with the process of surgery. High-quality materials can also survive high-temperature sterilization procedures.
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Its the daily mail and madness like it which lead people to believe these things should never occur.
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What are you trying to suggest then, that we should expect this to occur? They are not using food mixers or car parts. I know in Wales they use the Surgical Materials Testing Laboratory (SMTL) to assess standards of equipment. I don't know who the hospital in the above example were using?
 
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ethan said:
Not a never event no but a terrible and extremely unusual and rare one regardless.





What are you trying to suggest then, that we should expect this to occur? They are not using food mixers or car parts. I know in Wales they use the Surgical Materials Testing Laboratory (SMTL) to assess standards of equipment. I don't know who the hospital in the above example were using?
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Since you know the lab they use, do you happen to know how often they test their equipment?
Do they test every item?
Have you ever heard of a medical recall alert?
Do they test every item before every use?

No they don't.
I use surgical equipment on a daily basis, and new and old, pre or post sterilisation, there is always the possibility of metal fatigue, it might not rust, it might be made from titanium or stainless steel, but that doesn't make it eterrnally perfect. You seem to think it does.
This isn't the buy them from Pakistan as they are half the price 'Never' events I am talking about. Those happened and those should never have happened, but thats what you get for allowing a managare to buy equipment he was never going to use, never had used, and didn't have any surgical experience at all.

One forceps fracturing in the whole of the UK in a one year period, if thats the only metal device that fractured leading to complications, I be happy enough. Its not good it happened, but it did happen, not everything is unavoidable.
 
it is truly impressive how much effort people will go to in order to defend the nhs as it continues to fail thousands of people a year.

Why do so many oppose the transition to more successful, European style healthcare?
 
Dolph said:
it is truly impressive how much effort people will go to in order to defend the nhs as it continues to fail thousands of people a year.

Why do so many oppose the transition to more successful, European style healthcare?
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Have you worked in another health system?
I would argue that failing thousands when treating millions is a very good deal for a public health system.
 
Dolph said:
it is truly impressive how much effort people will go to in order to defend the nhs as it continues to fail thousands of people a year.

Why do so many oppose the transition to more successful, European style healthcare?
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Because they spend substantially more per capita than we do?

Every health care system "fails thousands" because every system is rationed in some way.
 
ethan said:
Not a never event no but a terrible and extremely unusual and rare one regardless.





What are you trying to suggest then, that we should expect this to occur? They are not using food mixers or car parts. I know in Wales they use the Surgical Materials Testing Laboratory (SMTL) to assess standards of equipment. I don't know who the hospital in the above example were using?
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You should always expect equipment failure, and should actively plan for it.

I don't really understand your points in this thread, you seem to be of the "It should never happen" mindset which is blinkered and setting yourself up for failure - the NHS has been trying to get rid of that midset for years.
 
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Dolph said:
it is truly impressive how much effort people will go to in order to defend the nhs as it continues to fail thousands of people a year.

Why do so many oppose the transition to more successful, European style healthcare?
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ahhh dolph you really do hate the NHS, why dont you **** off and pay for your own medical treatment then?

it doesnt fail 1000s of people, its just that the ones who have bad experiences shout the loudest. This daily fail article is just tripe, human error always will kill people, ever heard of black august when junior doctors start their first rotations, again down to human error, its a fact of life, people make mistakes get over it!
 
Minstadave said:
Because they spend substantially more per capita than we do?

Every health care system "fails thousands" because every system is rationed in some way.
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if cash was the problem, we would have seen outcome improvements due to the massive spending increases of the last 15 years. the fact that we haven't shows that pouring more money in without reforms won't work.
 
MrMoonX said:
ahhh dolph you really do hate the NHS, why dont you **** off and pay for your own medical treatment then?

it doesnt fail 1000s of people, its just that the ones who have bad experiences shout the loudest. This daily fail article is just tripe, human error always will kill people, ever heard of black august when junior doctors start their first rotations, again down to human error, its a fact of life, people make mistakes get over it!
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what a wonderful attitude, and so typical of a state monoplist.... oh dear, you died, well tough.

incidentally, I do pay for my own care. the problem is I still have to pay for the failing, inefficient one as well ;-)
 
Do you actually work in the NHS Dolph - what do you base your opinion on of the NHS being inefficient or failing? I can't say that's ever been my impression of it.

That Guardian data is pretty flawed - lots of people die of "treatable" conditions, doesn't mean their healthcare is poor. Look at that study on beer on weed usage the WHO published, utterly flawed data extrapolated from a single school to represent a whole country.

I do agree with their point that healthcare and politics should have a far greater degree of seperation.
 
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Dolph said:
what a wonderful attitude, and so typical of a state monoplist.... oh dear, you died, well tough.

incidentally, I do pay for my own care. the problem is I still have to pay for the failing, inefficient one as well ;-)
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You also miss here point as usual through your red mist hatred of the NHS.

The point is you can't have a perfect system where humans don't make mistakes it's not possible, hell I've made mistakes while in charge of dangerous criminals, it just happens.
 
Minstadave said:
Do you actually work in the NHS Dolph - what do you base your opinion on of the NHS being inefficient or failing? I can't say that's ever been my impression of it.

That Guardian data is pretty flawed - lots of people die of "treatable" conditions, doesn't mean their healthcare is poor. Look at that study on beer on weed usage the WHO published, utterly flawed data extrapolated from a single school to represent a whole country.

I do agree with their point that healthcare and politics should have a far greater degree of seperation.
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The relative performance compared with other countries and the failure to improve despite massive investment is what sets the impression. experience backs it up. Do note, however, that I do not blame those who work in the nhs system, apart from for their continued opposition to reform, it is the system itself that is broken.

If you want get politics out of healthcare, you have to break the nhs monopoly, there is no other way.
 
MrMoonX said:
You also miss here point as usual through your red mist hatred of the NHS.

The point is you can't have a perfect system where humans don't make mistakes it's not possible, hell I've made mistakes while in charge of dangerous criminals, it just happens.
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of course you cant, which is why the delta matters. the issue is not that some mistakes are made, but how many, when compared with alternative systems, providers or countries.

The report I quoted above isn't an absolute 17k deaths, that figure is the difference between the nhs and the better performing systems used in Europe.
 
surely the main question dolph is whether that difference is caused due to differences in SOPs, practices, training and staff or accountancy?


Because I'm not sure how the service is funded can account for everything.
 
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