To misquote (IIRC) Trotsky: you may not be interested in class, but class is very interested in you. You can't opt out, because that doesn't stop you being judged on your perceived class: and you will be.
Family class?
- Thread starter Van Hellseek
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To misquote (IIRC) Trotsky: you may not be interested in class, but class is very interested in you. You can't opt out, because that doesn't stop you being judged on your perceived class: and you will be.
The modern class system is more of an observation or behaviors, mannerisms and yes, partly wealth in some circumstances.
It is not really any different to classification by age- baby, toddler, child, teenager, adult. You cannot choose not to be a part of one of those groups.
It is not really any different to classification by age- baby, toddler, child, teenager, adult. You cannot choose not to be a part of one of those groups.
I class myself as being Middle Ginger Class
When I was at school I never was bullied about my hair colour
I made plenty of friends no problem, was even classed as a cool 'kid'
Have a fantastic fiance
Own an Audi
Mortgaged house
Own a dog
Hold a fairly good waged job
Girlfriend also earns ok being a Ward Sister (at 24!)
Still a while to go to be like Chris Evans, Ed Sheeran etc but have had a good life.
When I was at school I never was bullied about my hair colour
I made plenty of friends no problem, was even classed as a cool 'kid'
Have a fantastic fiance
Own an Audi
Mortgaged house
Own a dog
Hold a fairly good waged job
Girlfriend also earns ok being a Ward Sister (at 24!)
Still a while to go to be like Chris Evans, Ed Sheeran etc but have had a good life.
You should read Pierre Bourdieu
.It's called cultural / social capital. Basically middle-class people can afford better education, or else otherwise raise their children in households with better access to 'fine' things that build a middle-class outlook, sensibility, and most of all confidence. I can say that for sure the main thing sold by my public school's ridiculous fees is the sense of personal confidence it gives to its leavers - of course, all stemming from their historical institutional purpose of producing people to lead in the military and serve in high public office. That ethos, in the school and in the home, definitely gives certain classes the advantage. Conversely, if you are working class and educated at a lower-end state school, the goalposts are so radically different - it's basically an achievement if you even manage entry to a low-ranked university. The expectations and ethos are completely different; the cultural and social capital are incomparable.
Soldato
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If you're listed on thepeerage.com, does that make you upper class?
Except that class has pretty much existed for as long as modern civilization, anything past the small communal phase, and is one of the fundamental forces that help to guide and organize societies. Racism is not a mandatory part of human life
.The mistake nowadays when talking of class is to think in this post-Marxian way as always being essentially antagonistic, which isn't necessarily the case at all. People tend to always become defensive when discussing class nowadays as if it is the same sort of designation as a racial slur - of course not! Many societies have a class system that actually promotes harmony. 'Knowing your place' isn't necessarily oppressive or insulting; it can just as often be the opposite, and help you to lead a fulfilling life, with a sense of value in your society.
I've said this before on the class debate, and whilst we're here on the high-minded theory and pontificating step... i think the reason that there is a huge anxiety about class nowadays (particularly in the US and UK), is because the logic of advanced/late capitalism basically implies that anyone of a lower class is a mediocre or 'failed' person. The ideology of exceptionalism - originating in America and imported wholesale over here - the rabid promotion of individualism (and the lies of total fluid mobility that go along with it): all create a system where anyone not seemingly grabbing their slice of the American dream is an abject failure. Call it the ideology of unexceptionalism, if you will: rich charismatic CEO's are the modern-day heroes, working-class people must be idle and thus contemptible. Of course this isn't true, we have just invented a system and a superstructure/culture with it that defines you by material wealth, what you own, how much your paycheque takes home, etc. whilst completely forgetting that society would collapse if it wasn't for the people at the bottom doing the menial tasks and being happy with their lot.
I think that's where the stock-phrase "and proud of it" comes from. Before capitalism started implying that the working-class were idle brutes, working class people enjoyed a rich heritage and tradition of their own - think brassbands, male voice choirs, working men's clubs, etc. They may not have been all thrilled with their place in society, but they had a strong sense of identity, pride, and belonging. Nowadays we have alienated the lower classes, and the class issue becomes essentially antagonistic again. It riles people. Silly, imo.
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The problem with stuff like tracing family trees and considering heredity is that keeping class and preserving the family line is pretty much the key goal of the primogenitive upper classes. My family tree shows a great (great-great-great-etc) grandfather being a fairly high ranking nobleman and officer in the Napoleonic Wars. So distant though, and the family has become so far removed and 'diluted' from that state, it's almost a pointless fetishisation of the past 
Similarly with things such as family crests and seals, signet rings, etc. Vestiges of a lost history for most people nowadays, where 'good breeding' in a relaxed liberal society tends to only be the preserve of the serious career rahs.
Similarly with things such as family crests and seals, signet rings, etc. Vestiges of a lost history for most people nowadays, where 'good breeding' in a relaxed liberal society tends to only be the preserve of the serious career rahs.
if someone who's family is considered middle class but ends up with a lifestyle different to what they were brought up with, do they then become working class ? and the opposite
maybe there should be a minimum age to determine what class you are
maybe there should be a minimum age to determine what class you are
if someone who's family is considered middle class but ends up with a lifestyle different to what they were brought up with, do they then become working class ? and the opposite
maybe there should be a minimum age to determine what class you are
I don't think so... because again, 90% of class in Britain is (thankfully) down to character, education, mannerism, sensibility, taste, etc. and not just vulgar wealth. Families and their fortunes can go up and down in the space of a generation, falling on bad times, striking gold, etc. and it doesn't drastically change the character of the people or family itself. Plus I think it's better if you're going to judge someone to judge them on their character and personal merits, rather than how much money they have. Judging people on earnings or material wealth is perilous.
A CEO can be a class-less, vulgar person. A secretary can very principled, well-raised, educated, full of grace and elan. etc. Your job and your money shouldn't dictate your personal worth.
I consider myself to be working class with a middle class lifestyle if there's such a thing. I do manual work in the construction industry, my father worked as a fitter in a local factory and my mother was a housewife.
My wife however is a teacher, my son gets private eduction if that's the correct term and we own our own home outright. Financially we're comfortable. Maybe I'm middle class with a manual job, it doesn't really bother me whatever I'm labelled but due to my upbringing & job I consider myself working class.
My wife however is a teacher, my son gets private eduction if that's the correct term and we own our own home outright. Financially we're comfortable. Maybe I'm middle class with a manual job, it doesn't really bother me whatever I'm labelled but due to my upbringing & job I consider myself working class.
Show me a successful civilization that has supported its own large size and progression without a class/caste system, please.
The important thing is making it an agreeable and harmonious system, rather than one predicated on oppositions, difference, and envy.
You can't have 'haves' without 'have nots'. A civilization doesn't run successfully with highly-educated professionals and bureaucrats alone, etc...
Unless you mean to say you support a classless society, an egalitarian utopia, or rather shall we say a communist dystopia... I'll take a class system over mass famine and labour camps, ta.
You think I actually care? I was just stating it as it was.
Sorry for the misleading post.
Seems like a pointless tautology to just point out that class=caste
It seemed you had a negative connotation associated with a 'caste' system.
Didn't you know Gandhi was just as emphatic about retaining the Indian caste system as he was about promoting Indian independence? Most of his more extreme protests and hunger strikes were actually to do with internal affairs of Congress to do with the Dalits, not Britain.
Seems like a pointless tautology to just point out that class=caste
It seemed you had a negative connotation associated with a 'caste' system.
Didn't you know Gandhi was just as emphatic about retaining the Indian caste system as he was about promoting Indian independence? Most of his more extreme protests and hunger strikes were actually to do with internal affairs of Congress to do with the Dalits, not Britain.
Who cares if Gandhi supported it? It doesn't make it moral. Unfortunately with caste systems you invariably get a subclass who are treated as such. And then you deal with the kind of restrictions it imposes on people, you can see that it's not something that really works with democracy.
That's a bit of a fallacy of false choices.
Taking into account that real communism has never actually been tried (marxist communism) - it's hard to draw any conclusions regarding the standard of living in any theoretical system of governance.
One thing is true, real marxist communism has a strong technological requirement - automation, robotics & AI has to reach a certain level for true communism to be effective.
But other options do exists, a full meritocracy, a technocracy etc - it's not a choice between a class system & mass famine.
I think attitude and values define your class rather than any monetary value or lineage. Myself, I've been fortunate to attend public school, which taught me a lot about the world. I think this is far more telling than your job title.
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