Back-to-work scheme ruled lawful by High Court

[Things change I've changed]

As they still receive their benefits I fail to see how it constitutes being unlawful or "slave labour"....the idea is to get back into work....not to be given work according to what you want to do or what you are qualified to do and nothing else. It is simply part of the criteria for claiming unemployment benefits that you periodically attend work experience for a fortnight......if you don't want to then simply do not do it, it is optional and you could always get a job yourselves....... part of the problem is not that there are no jobs, but that people are too fussy over what jobs they will do or what they see as beneath them, such as working in Poundland with a geology degree......

It's not about being fussy, if I was on the dole I would jump at the chance of having this 'work experience' if I was guaranteed a job at the end of it but very rarely does it net you a job, and in many areas there are genuinely no jobs available, down here you gets HUNDREDS of people applying for one menial position, when poundland opened here we had around 600 people applying for about 4 positions.

When I was younger and ever out of work I could always get a job the next day, you just got up early and pound the pavement, going around to local shops, hotels, super stores etc, you'd always get a job that day, but now most companies tell you that you have to apply through the job centre, it's hard to brute force your way into a job these days, and the job centre are very rarely helpful and quite often demeaning even when your genuinely looking for work.

Also elmarko1234 makes good point, how on earth are you going to be convinced that work is a good thing when your life is actually worse off during this work experience, you should be rewarded for it by being paid the market rate for the job, show the real lazy people out there that life could be much improved in fulltime employment, that you get rewarded for your efforts, not punished.

 

[elmarko]

For unskilled jobs the amount of applicants per positions is incredible.

I've seen 500+ applications for a single job on some of the job-sites, thankfully my field is specialised - but I'd hate to have to fight against so many for a single job.

If they want to reduce unemployment the first thing they need to do is increase the amount of jobs.

People don't just get lazy during a recession, it's like Spain's youth decided one morning that work was for suckers & collectively decided that out of utter laziness none of them would get a job.

Having more people than jobs is the core of the problem - once that's solved we can start calling people lazy. Until then it's just a demeaning phrase banded around by the public/leaders to demonise the jobless.

 

[Castiel]

It's not about being fussy, if I was on the dole I would jump at the chance of having this 'work experience' if I was guaranteed a job at the end of it but very rarely does it net you a job, and in many areas there are genuinely no jobs available, down here you gets HUNDREDS of people applying for one menial position, when poundland opened here we had around 600 people applying for about 4 positions.

When I was younger and ever out of work I could always get a job the next day, you just got up early and pound the pavement, going around to local shops, hotels, super stores etc, you'd always get a job that day, but now most companies tell you that you have to apply through the job centre, it's hard to brute force your way into a job these days, and the job centre are very rarely helpful and quite often demeaning even when your genuinely looking for work.

It is hard, I appreciate that, however that doesn't negate the point that this work experience is part of the criteria for claiming benefits.....it isn't about guaranteeing you a job or making more jobs available, it is about getting people to experience working in different environments, sometimes this will be the first time working, or the first time in that environment. surely that is better than simply sitting at home claiming your JSA and worrying about finding a job?

It will also lead to a job for a proportion of people, also many firms (including Tesco) are now paying the staff they recruit onto these work placements..of course it will not help or suit everyone, but it will help some and that is reason enough to do it.

 

[Things change I've changed]

it is about getting people to experience working in different environments, sometimes this will be the first time working, or the first time in that environment. surely that is better than simply sitting at home claiming your JSA and worrying about finding a job?

The thing is though what are you teaching these people?, are people going to come away thinking that they've gained basic work skills and confidence or are they going to feel punished and demoralised?

Personally if I was an individual that was long term unemployed having to work full-time in a temporary job for the same money I receive on the dole is not going to convince me that work is a good thing, a fundamental part of working is the financial reward you receive for your services, that's why the majority of us work, and in a menial job that reward is even more important as many menial jobs are lacking in job satisfaction so payday is a saving grace for our efforts, minimum wage at least should be mandatory in all work experience positions.

 

[mmj_uk]

1. All "free labour" is put into local council activities/local charities/community projects - this may instil them with a sense of self-esteem, while still getting them out of bed & into a routine - they may even feel good about the work done.

2. They get national minimum wage for the work done - this will give them a taste of what they can earn, something which has a better chance of actually working at those they wish to target (the minority of real lazy ones).

The two points above really do make all the difference.

Agree with this, if the government wants to give these people work experience or training then let them get it from local councils and charities, then the private entities currently benefitting from these programmes can actually hire people full time and more tax will be coming in. All the scheme is doing as it stands is giving private companies free labour and removing taxable jobs.

 

[Castiel]

The thing is though what are you teaching these people?, are people going to come away thinking that they've gained basic work skills and confidence or are they going to feel punished and demoralised?

Why would anyone feel punished or demoralised.....are you suggesting that everyone working in Poundland (or equivalent) is being punished and should be demoralised that they are now so low in the social order that they are working in a retail store?

Personally if I was an individual that was long term unemployed having to work full-time in a temporary job for the same money I receive on the dole is not going to convince me that work is a good thing, a fundamental part of working is the financial reward you receive for your services, that's why the majority of us work, and in a menial job that reward is even more important as many menial jobs are lacking in job satisfaction so payday is a saving grace for our efforts, minimum wage at least should be mandatory.

I think you would have to be pretty foolish if you believe that work experience is equal to having a full time job financially.......it is work experience and many firms do actually pay their work experience inductees.

The idea is to gain work experience, not to mandate minimum incomes, that will come when you find an actual job, hopefully helped by gaining work experience in programs such as this.

 

[ubersonic]

Well, in a country with more people than jobs I fail to see the logic in this kind of "Back to work" scheme.

Once we have a job surplus fine.

We have a job surplus in many many areas, just because the are less jobs flipping burgers than people to do it doesn't stop us having to bring in immigrants to do jobs that UK staff cannot sadly

 

[Castiel]

We have a job surplus in many many areas, just because the are less jobs flipping burgers than people to do it doesn't stop us having to bring in immigrants to do jobs that UK staff cannot sadly

Indeed, we need to encourage a more mobile workforce, especially amongst the younger generations who are more likely and able to move for work.

 

[SmallestFrog]

I think lots of long-term unemployed people are ... scared? to go back into work. It's like they're in a comfort zone on JSA and they find it difficult to get out of it, even though they know they should. I think this back to work program will help reduce the long term unemployed, because it forces you out of the comfort zone and makes you realise it's not so bad.

Having said that, it obviously doesn't apply to everyone and for a lot of people it's just going to be an absolute pain in the backside, and a barrier in the way of job searching.

It doesn't half create an incentive to find work quickly though...

To call JSA comforting in any way is frankly wrong. It isn't enough to live on, period. So there is no comfort zone at all with it. The majority of people I know on JSA want to work, and i live in an area of Hemel that's largely described as being full of the work shy, but its simply not the case. Why would anybody want to live on barely anything a week, incurring debts constantly just to be able to feed yourself and your family?

As for this scheme... what decent employer is really going to look at this and say "ooh, they did two weeks in Poundland - that makes them so much more employable now!".

 

[Things change I've changed]

Why would anyone feel punished or demoralised.....are you suggesting that everyone working in Poundland (or equivalent) is being punished and should be demoralised that they are now so low in the social order that they are working in a retail store?.

No don't be silly, why would you assume I'm suggesting that, I'm talking about people in work experience programs not in actual real full-time employment, there is a difference, it's a lot harder being on the dole doing work experience than actually having a real job doing the same thing, while on work experience you still have to be actively looking for work while receiving less money than those your working with doing the same job, and on top of that your most likely not going to secure a real job out of it, it's a very stressful situation to be in.

I believe during this period you should be given a break, really show these people the benefit of full-time work, earning extra money, not having having to attend the job centre, this way when they finish the training program and have to start attending the job centre again and start receiving less money the negatives of being on the dole are going to become more apparent, the training programme should be a reward scheme, make people want to work, don't punish them and expect them to be thankful for learning how to stack shelves.

The majority of these positions are still unpaid (beyond the benefits you receive) and that is unacceptable, what's the point in giving someone work experience if you don't show them the rewards of work, you need to motivate them, in menial jobs that require little or no real cognitive thinking money is the main motivator for work.

Work experience or training alone with no financial reward in a non menial job gaining skills for an actual profession makes a lot more sense, not in menial work it doesn't, your motivations are different, these work experience programmes should reflect what it's like to be in full-time employment and the rewards that come with that.

 

[elmarko]

We have a job surplus in many many areas, just because the are less jobs flipping burgers than people to do it doesn't stop us having to bring in immigrants to do jobs that UK staff cannot sadly

Not for unskilled labour we don't, or for most of the north of the country.

If we had perfect social mobility I'd agree - but we don't, it's actually pretty terrible.

Vastly different levels of employment across the country, vastly different standards of education - it's hardly surprising some areas are having problems.

 

[elmarko]

No don't be silly no, why would you assume I'm suggesting that, I'm talking about people in work experience programs not in actual real full-time employment, there is a difference, it's a lot harder being on dole doing work experience than actually having a real job doing the same thing, while on work experience you still have to be actively looking for work while receiving less money than those your working with doing the same job, and on top of that your most likely not going to secure a real job out of it, it's a very stressful situation to be in.

I believe during this period you should be given break, really show these people the benefit of full-time work, earning extra money, not having having to attend the job centre, this way when they finish the training program and have to start attending the job centre again and start receiving less money the negatives of being on the dole are going to become more apparent, the training programme should be a reward scheme, make people want to work, don't punish them and expect them to be thankful for learning how to stack shelves.

The majority of these positions are still unpaid (beyond the benefits you receive) and that is unacceptable, what's the point in giving someone work experience if you don't show them the rewards of work, you need to motivate them, in menial jobs that require little or no real cognitive thinking money is the main motivator for work.

Working experience or training alone with no financial reward in a non menial job gaining skills for an actual profession makes a lot more sense, not in menial work it doesn't, your motivations different, these work experience programs should reflect what it's like to be in full-time employment and the rewards that come with that.

+1 on all points.

The R.S.A has a talk on this subject regarding manual labour the mental reward mechanisms involved (Drive I believe it's called).

It's not like people opposed to this idea are denying that some people could do with a helping hand/kick up the backside - just that I can find no justifiable reason to avoid paying them an honest wage for the work they do.

Pay them, no private businesses.

Suddenly it changes from being demotivating exploitation to aid business to a work opportunity to earning some cash & learn the rewards they can obtain through hard work, all while helping out in the community.

It's not like it would cost that much & hey, if it works as well as they are claiming it to it will cost less in the long-run.

To me, this kind of policy seems like something they introduced to appease the Daily Mail reading Joe public.

 

[Lightnix]

So given that most (if not all these days, unless you can exploit nepotism somehow) jobs require experience, and no employers are willing to give people that first bit of experience - how else do you plan to get inexperienced job seekers into employment than getting them some experience? Surely it's either this or give them a 'get out of jail free card' to lie about it on their CV.

 

[cm1179]

surely the HGV driver just needs to sign up for an agency?

 

[StriderX]

Pay them half the minimum wage and then 90% JSA, reduce the JSA by a certain percentage point every so often, while raising the wage.

Can this be done?

 

[realBabelfish]

Agree with this, if the government wants to give these people work experience or training then let them get it from local councils and charities, then the private entities currently benefitting from these programmes can actually hire people full time and more tax will be coming in. All the scheme is doing as it stands is giving private companies free labour and removing taxable jobs.

give them council jobs. its not like the majority know that the hell is going on anyway

Castiel, i know where you are coming from but i just see it as free labour for some blue-chip companies. it will also give those companies an upper hand due to reduced labour costs.

and we have already seen some companies making people redundant only to find the role is up for 'free training' the following week. so some people are being made unemployed to create these opportunities.

 

[realBabelfish]

If I was employer... if there were two identical candidates, but one had been unemployed for a year, whilst the other had partaken in a back-to-work scheme, I'd definitely employ the latter. I think any work experience is better than nothing, if we're talking about long-term unemployed people.

However, I do think these people should be working for the local authority, rather than businesses, if that'd be practicable.

neither, you would employ one of the recently redundant people who there are millions of.... but i get your point. at the end of the day there will always be long term unemployed whether they are just stupid, lazy, useless or unfortunate.

 

[realBabelfish]

Why would anyone feel punished or demoralised.....are you suggesting that everyone working in Poundland (or equivalent) is being punished and should be demoralised that they are now so low in the social order that they are working in a retail store?

mate, i think he means working at poundland fulltime for less than £2 an hour. as said, you might spend extra on travelling and lunch and be worse off

 

[Castiel]

Working experience or training alone with no financial reward in a non menial job gaining skills for an actual profession makes a lot more sense, not in menial work it doesn't, your motivations different, these work experience programs should reflect what it's like to be in full-time employment and the rewards that come with that.

I disagree....the placements are only for a two week period and therefore are designed to give a taster of what a working environment is like...it is not formal training in a career path or skills training, there are other avenues for that.

It is simply part of the qualifying criteria of claiming JSA, it is optional and even if it was mandatory (and I think it should be mandatory to take a 2 week placement every 6 months whilst claiming JSA) I see no reason to oppose it unless it means that large firms are using this scheme instead of hiring people, which so far there is no evidence of this happening.

 

[Castiel]

mate, i think he means working at poundland fulltime for less than £2 an hour. as said, you might spend extra on travelling and lunch and be worse off

However it is not a fulltime position...it is a two week temporary work placement. I would be surprised if travel costs were not reimbursed or accounted for anyway and unemployed people also eat lunch so I don't see the argument there.

I'm not opposed to NMW being paid either, but they should therefore have their benefits suspended for that two week period (all of them).......