Is older music better?

[Lysander]

Just off the top of my head, from some more mainstream acts, the most recent albums from Radiohead, Opeth, Bon Iver, Beirut, TV on the Radio, Metronomy, Fleet Foxes, Guillemots, Antony & the Johnsons, Burial, Porcupine Tree, Pain of Salvation, **** Buttons, Animal Collective and Scott Walker have been like nothing I've ever heard before. Not to say every one of these albums is one that should go down in history with Sgt Peppers or Exile, but while listening to them I've had that thought "wow, this is new and interesting", which excites me.

And before anybody reels off names of artists these albums obviously draw influence from, pretty much everything that's ever been considered "original" still has oodles of past music flowing through it. To break new ground is to take a slightly new direction; it's not to avoid using anything that anybody has ever heard before. Otherwise we'd only have room for things like Metal Machine Music.

Well, I wouldn't describe the latest by Opeth and **** Buttons as being that great. Really enjoyed the last Crystal Castles though.

However, since you've admitted that none of these artists are doing anything potentially new or interesting [with the possible exception of Radiohead], hasn't this just turned into a list of "albums we like"?

 

[PaddyMC89]

Where on Earth did I admit that? My statement was that every album ever released, however groundbreaking or original it is described, has elements borrowed from the past. 100% originality is completely impossible to achieve. For example, the most recent Opeth album (which I'm also not a fan of) combined elements of Swedish & English folk, 70s prog and heavy metal; clearly not completely original sounds, but arranged in a way that makes the songs and album sound a little different to anything we've ever heard before.

Also I don't think I ever described any of the acts / albums I listed as being either good or bad, so I've no idea where you got the "albums we like" bit from.

 

[Lysander]

Where on Earth did I admit that?

Here:

My statement was that every album ever released, however groundbreaking or original it is described, has elements borrowed from the past.

Also I don't think I ever described any of the acts / albums I listed as being either good or bad, so I've no idea where you got the "albums we like" bit from.

But you just made a list of albums you like, or was I misunderstanding it when you said they were like nothing you'd ever heard? Normally that's taken to mean they're amazing.

 

[PaddyMC89]

So you're quoting something and saying it means something different to what it actually means, and I'm the one who needs to "lie down"?

I'd really love to hear an explanation as to how what I've said means what you've misinterpreted it as. Something a little more in-depth than "it just is", if you're capable.

edit: nice Ninja edit

But you just made a list of albums you like, or was I misunderstanding it when you said they were like nothing you'd ever heard? Normally that's taken to mean they're amazing.

I dunno how "like nothing I've ever heard" means "it's amazing". I don't like a few of the albums I listed there. When I heard Revolution 9 by The Beatles, the most fitting description possible would be "like nothing I've ever heard before", but I absolutely hated it (though my mind has changed since then - doesn't dismiss the fact that the two initial thoughts on it were at odds with one another, though). Film Socialisme was unlike anything I'd ever seen before, but I absolutely hated it. Originality does not equal greatness, but greatness was never what I was debating.

 

[SheepBeast]

darkest band ever to exist? What a ridiculous statement.

You'll notice I qualified it with a "probably". What I mean is, I have never encountered any band darker than tool, not even close, and I listen to the darkest genres of music (metal). There are many bands whose music is "angry" (screaming etc) but this isn't the same as dark.

Dark in what way? I know there a lot of bands out there with dark lyrical themes and a 'dark' sound.

Go listen to their music. To quote Allmusic "Tool's impulse to cram every inch of infinity with hard guitar meat and absolute dread". This is a great summary of their sound. Musically their compositions are minor key and minimalist, with both heavy sections and quiet, contemplative ones, along with great use of feedback and unusual instruments to create a unique sound. They also use very unusual time signatures (11/8 for Right in Two, 6.5/8 for schism). Their lyrics are also often dark in theme (prison sex) or deal with existential topics (forty six & 2, reflection). Just listen to these songs and you won't need me to explain why they are dark, you will see for yourself.

They're about as dark as a bowl of cornflakes.

Name some bands that are darker than tool then. I await your list with anticipation.

 

[SexyGreyFox]

Music these days is about making as much money as you possibly can in the short term and to do that a large amount of producers for pop music use the wining 4 chord formula, knowing full well the artist will probably be musically history in a year. There's still good music being made under the dross though.

Rubbish, it has always been the same from at least the 50s onwards.
3 chord & 4 chord tricks have always been the main diet of pop music from Elvis to now.
However in the 'old' days artists were being pushed to put out as many singles as possible where that doesn't happen now.

 

[Lysander]

I dunno how "like nothing I've ever heard" means "it's amazing". I don't like a few of the albums I listed there.

That's my mistake then, that's how I understood it.

To quote Allmusic

Allmusic are majoritively a bunch of idiots and I know no-one who takes them seriously.

Name some bands that are darker than tool then.

No.

 

[SheepBeast]

Allmusic are majoritively a bunch of idiots and I know no-one who takes them seriously.

How is that relevant? I was using their words to communicate MY view, not theirs.

No.

Then shut up. You are clearly trolling. You've even put my post in your signature and edited it to remove the qualifier at the end, so it's out of context. What a douche-bag.

 

[oldbag]

Rubbish, it has always been the same from at least the 50s onwards.
3 chord & 4 chord tricks have always been the main diet of pop music from Elvis to now.
However in the 'old' days artists were being pushed to put out as many singles as possible where that doesn't happen now.

What I mean is that there are a number of people producing songs for 'artists' using the winning formula production line style which IMO lacks creativity, it's just what has sold records before changed slightly.

 

[SexyGreyFox]

What I mean is that there are a number of people producing songs for 'artists' using the winning formula production line style which IMO lacks creativity, it's just what has sold records before changed slightly.

There have always been writers like that from Leiber & Stoller in the 50s to Chinn & Chapman in the 70s and loads more in between and beyond the 80s.
Once a writer hits a winning formula they will keep on and on.
Nothing has changed.

 

[Lysander]

How is that relevant? I was using their words to communicate MY view, not theirs.

It's totally relevant because you were using them to qualify your statement when they're one of the most disrespected webzines I know.

Then shut up. You are clearly trolling.

I'm not going to make a 'list' for you, that's not trolling.

You've even put my post in your signature and edited it to remove the qualifier at the end, so it's out of context

No, it's completely within context. Including the word 'probably' makes no difference.

Once a writer hits a winning formula they will keep on and on.

Precisely. Look at Nightwish, their sound hasn't changed one bit and they're seven albums down the line and raking it in.

 

[SheepBeast]

It's totally relevant because you were using them to qualify your statement when they're one of the most disrespected webzines I know.

I wasn't using them to qualify my statement. I was using their words to express MY opinion. Don't use words you don't understand. I could be quoting Hitler and it wouldn't matter as I'm not appealing to authority - I'm not saying "look this person said this, therefore it must be true". I'm saying "look at these words, they express my opinion better than I could do myself". It's irrelevant what the source of the words is.

I'm not going to make a 'list' for you, that's not trolling.

Your general beligerence is extremely troll-like.

No, it's completely within context. Including the word 'probably' makes no difference.

It's completly out of context because I included the word "probably" to indicate it was only my opinion based on the bands that I have heard. Any reasonable human being would see that.

"Tool is the best band ever" means a completely different thing to "Tool is among the best bands ever" or "Tool is probably the best band ever". This is equivalent misquotation to what you have done with your signature, in order to try and make me look stupid. This is why I said you are trolling. You refuse to respond to me with even one band name or song which is darker than Tool, yet you claim I am being ridiculous when I say they are probably the darkest band. If you can't even name one band or song then your opinion is clearly based on nothing. In addition you quote me out of context, twisting the meaning of what I actually said.

Basically, you're being a ****.

 

[Robosapien]

NIN.
Katatonia.
Alice In Chains.
Death.
Manic Street Preachers.
Lamb Of God.
A Perfect Circle.
Burzum.
Agalloch.
Ulver.

Tool actually have a sense of humour.

 

[SheepBeast]

NIN.
Katatonia.
Alice In Chains.
Death.
Manic Street Preachers.
Lamb Of God.
A Perfect Circle.
Burzum.
Agalloch.
Ulver.

Tool actually have a sense of humour.

APC darker than tool? not even close. Same goes for Alice in Chains and NIN although I completely agree these two are very dark also. Wouldn't say Lamb of God are particularly dark and I haven't heard music by the other bands. Thankyou for coming up with that list though - I'll add some songs to my playlist and give those bands a listen

To me "dark" music has to have a sense of threat or forboding (fitting tool perfectly). While the likes of Alice in Chains write about sad or negative themes and tend to use minor keys, the music never really has a sense of dread. NIN does have this, however Tool has it in spades hence why I would put them as #1.

Keenan's sense of humour is awesome, but he only shows it in one or two songs.

 

[Robosapien]

APC darker than tool? not even close. Same goes for Alice in Chains and NIN although I completely agree these two are very dark also. Wouldn't say Lamb of God are particularly dark and I haven't heard music by the other bands. Thankyou for coming up with that list though - I'll add some songs to my playlist and give those bands a listen

To me "dark" music has to have a sense of threat or forboding (fitting tool perfectly). While the likes of Alice in Chains write about sad or negative themes and tend to use minor keys, the music never really has a sense of dread. NIN does have this, however Tool has it in spades hence why I would put them as #1.

Keenan's sense of humour is awesome, but he only shows it in one or two songs.

I don't know, this is pretty dark and forboding if you ask me:-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lr_tyst3SVE

Should probably add Carcass to the list too.
I don't think I disagree with you tbh though, I'd probably put Tool as #1 too.

 

[David_VI]

I don't truly understand what you mean by dark. I know loads of bands with dark lyrics, dark sound and atmosphere, but they don't sound like Tool, I kinda feel you'l stick to your guns regardless. There are different kinds of 'dark'.

I just really can't think of any bands off the top of my head even though I know they exist.

If you ask me I think Woods of Ypres are a 'dark' band

Godspeed You! Black Emperor have a very dark sound.

Anathema used to be quite dark

Dead Soul Tribe, Although I find they sound quite a bit like Tool..

Apparently The Wounded are Darker.

Black metal is pretty dark, suicidal Black metal probably..
But I still can't put my finger on what you mean by Dark except just Tools sound.

This is all quite off topic for this thread, maybe there should be a thread 'Music Darker than Tool'

 

[Lysander]

Black metal is pretty dark, suicidal Black metal probably.. But I still can't put my finger on what you mean by Dark except just Tools sound.

This is why I refuse to get into this discussion, the "dark" quality of music is totally relative. Some genres are largely darker than others but to say one band is definitively darker than another is purely subjective. I've never heard anyone say Tool are dark though, let alone the darkest band ever.

Apparently The Wounded are Darker.

Haha, nice. I saw them live in Holland a few years ago, much better live than on disc.

 

[oweneades]

Precisely. Look at Nightwish, their sound hasn't changed one bit and they're seven albums down the line and raking it in.

Music wise, arguably not (although I would say Imaginarium is very different to say Wishmaster - especially the song Storytime), but vocally they are nothing like they were. Attempting to listen to them play their pre 2006 catalogue with Anette at the helm is downright painful (Sleeping Sun in particular is atrocious).

 

[David_VI]

Music wise, arguably not (although I would say Imaginarium is very different to say Wishmaster - especially the song Storytime), but vocally they are nothing like they were. Attempting to listen to them play their pre 2006 catalogue with Anette at the helm is downright painful (Sleeping Sun in particular is atrocious).

I agree, Nightwish did change. I used to be a huge fan but grew out of them just before Anette. In my ears Wishmaster was a very power metal-esqe record, probably the peak of their power metal sound in the middle of their career. Not heard Imaginarium. They were good at what they did but can't say I have an opinion now.

This is why I refuse to get into this discussion, the "dark" quality of music is totally relative. Some genres are largely darker than others but to say one band is definitively darker than another is purely subjective. I've never heard anyone say Tool are dark though, let alone the darkest band ever.



Haha, nice. I saw them live in Holland a few years ago, much better live than on disc.

Awesome, I found The Wounded due to one of my guitar tutors doing a project with the guitarist and being a big fan of Anathema. Wish I could see them live sometime but they're one of those bands that appear to be very unknown and don't really do much to help that. One of my favourite bands definitely.

 

[SheepBeast]

Parabola is ridiculously dark, musically. The video too.