Is personal responsibility a thing of the past?

[wannabedamned]

So Network Rail have to investigate why some kids stole something from them?

No, they have to investigate why something like explosives werent properly secured. No one is saying the children arent at fault, but regardless of that, explosives should never be openly accessible.

Mining equipment is secured in cages for instance, stopping easy access to public.

 

[SilverTongue]

So Network Rail have to investigate why some kids stole something from them?

No Network Rail have to investigate why a careless employee left the detonators unsecured

 

[dowie]

What on earth are you on about?

I'm on about the fact that explosives, detonators etc.. are supposed to be secured. Would you also come out with such silly statements if the people who stole the unsecured detonators put them to use in a different way?

The problem isn't that network rail's property was stolen but that network rail were trusted to be able to store something dangerous and weren't adequately doing so.

 

[anything I don't mind]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detonator_(railway).

 

[Cold_And_Miserable]

these aren't normal detonators used for explosives. They're little metal disc, that make a massive bang and aren't designed to do damage.
they are classed as 1.4s

You are describing a blasting cap. I think they can be bought easily enough as they're used for black powder firearms.

 

[Glaucus]

They are still dangerous when used incorrectly....particularly if you through an entire box of them on a bonfire.

From what I have read the box was unmarked and unsecured and the site itself was accessible through a broken fence opposite a skate park....something that is the responsibility of Network Rail, so they certainly share some of the responsibility here.

well it certainly doesn't say any off that in the OPs article. So i can only go from that.
They are same class as consumer firewwroks, they don't need to be locked in a vault only accessible with industrial cutting kit, like the article suggests.

all Class 1.4S (usually ammunition, percussion caps an
d capped cartridge cases in their original packaging),
may be stored in an internal portable magazine, a cabinet or on shelving which is not accessible to
unauthorised persons

 

[scorza]

I dislike the notion of personal responsibility because it's often used as an excuse for governments and companies to renege on their duty of care. In this case however I say tough luck to the kid who lost an eye, but he really has no-one else to blame but himself.

 

[oldbag]

It's a bit like someone breaking into your house, taking your things, injuring themselves in the process and then suing you for their injury. Its ridiculous, provided proper security is in place in the first place and these things are safeguarded, those who initiated the action (i.e, trespassed) should be responsible.

 

[dowie]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detonator_(railway).

ah ok... that is a bit different... my idea of a 'detonator' was more along the lines of what you'd see being used when disposing of UXO

perhaps not as bad to leave something like that out but still I'm not sure leaving out an entire box of them unmarked was such a good idea

 

[Nitefly]

Sounds like classic Rylands & Fletcher... or maybe not

 

[[TW]Fox]

It is not rubbish.....as I said the teenagers still have relative responsibility for their personal actions, but that does not negate the responsibility of Network Rail in failing to secure dangerous materials. Teenagers are, by their very nature, liable to do things that in hindsight are irresponsible...this includes trespassing and playing with things that go bang.

The two that stole them were 17. They can legally join the army. They can have sex. They can drive a car.

They understand that you don't break into private property and steal things, and they understand that if you do this and somebody gets hurt, its your fault.

 

[wannabedamned]

I dont think anyone is denying that the teenagers are at fault for stealing in the first place. Thats sort of obvious

 

[arknor]

lol comparing a railway detonator to TNT!

they are nothing more than a firework...

its perfectly safe for a train to drive over one ffs.....

 

[233]

seriously? how on earth are Network rail at fault here?

they leave a box of THEIR detonators on THEIR property and some little scrotes steal them and cause harm with them

if you really wanted to gain access to them you could go onto the railway at any number of work sites and half inch them from the track. they are not out and out explosives but just big enough to give off a loud crack to alert train crews to the prescence of an obstruction ahead on the line.

let me give you an example.

say I run a garage and have a car with faulty brakes which I park in my workshop with the keys in the ignition. some toerag then steals said car and stuffs it into a bus stop injuring some innocent party would the garage owner be liable? Of course not. same situation here.

2 teenagers commit a criminal offence by entering railway property and steal something dangerous. they then hurt someone with these detonators and all of a sudden Big bad network rail are suddenly to blame rather than the 2 criminals? never has the I don't want to live on this planet anymore .jpg been so needed

 

[[TW]Fox]

No, they have to investigate why something like explosives werent properly secured.

We are not talking about a tonne of C4 here, you realise this yes?

 

[wannabedamned]

We are not talking about a tonne of C4 here, you realise this yes?

I am yes, But it's still considered an explosive

 

[Castiel]

well it certainly doesn't say any off that in the OPs article. So i can only go from that.
They are same class as consumer firewwroks, they don't need to be locked in a vault only accessible with industrial cutting kit, like the article suggests.

It does in several other articles....the point is that Railway Track/Fog Signals (as the detonators are actually called) are restricted explosive materials and have to be legally secured properly.

They are classed as a Class 1.4(s) Explosive so the same as small arms ammunition and blasting caps and some fireworks, the (s) means that in the event of a fire, normal procedures can be followed....however this requires that the RT/FS ordnance is packed and secured in the marked packaging namely a secured, locked, metal Ammunition Box and in a locked secured building, the ordinance must be accounted for and disposed of properly....clearly that three teenagers could get their hands on a box of them means that someone hasn't followed the proper procedures for dealing with dangerous materials and thus they share some of the responsibility for the accident.

http://www.rgsonline.co.uk/Railway_... Management/Guidance Notes/GEGN8532 Iss 1.pdf

 

[Glaucus]

It does in several other articles....the point is that Railway Track/Fog Signals (as the detonators are actually called) are restricted explosive materials and have to be legally secured properly.

They are classed as a Class 1.4(s) Explosive so the same as small arms ammunition and blasting caps and some fireworks, the (s) means that in the event of a fire, normal procedures can be followed....however this requires that the RT/FS ordnance is packed and secured in the marked packaging namely a secured, locked, metal Ammunition Box and in a locked secured building, the ordinance must be accounted for and disposed of properly....clearly that three teenagers could get their hands on a box of them means that someone hasn't followed the proper procedures for dealing with dangerous materials and thus they share some of the responsibility for the accident.

I already quoted the relevant part

all Class 1.4S (usually ammunition, percussion caps an
d capped cartridge cases in their original packaging),
may be stored in an internal portable magazine, a cabinet or on shelving which is not accessible to
unauthorised persons

and how am i meant to guess what isn't in the OP.

 

[dowie]

The two that stole them were 17. They can legally join the army. They can have sex. They can drive a car.

They understand that you don't break into private property and steal things, and they understand that if you do this and somebody gets hurt, its your fault.

I don't think anyone is saying that the kids aren't to blame... what some people are saying is that network rail also has some blame

civil engineering safety manual:

6.3.5
SECURITY
(a) At Main Issuing Stores, Secondary Stores and Depot Stores, all
detonators must be stored in locked metal ammunition boxes or
similar.
(b) At Minor Stores, all detonators issued for daily use must be
secured in locked metal ammunition boxes or similar at the end of
the day’s work. They should not be left unsecured in the
carrying cylinders used by staff.

clearly these weren't stored properly and someone at network rail has screwed up

 

[Castiel]

The two that stole them were 17. They can legally join the army. They can have sex. They can drive a car.

They understand that you don't break into private property and steal things, and they understand that if you do this and somebody gets hurt, its your fault.

Who said they didn't......no me that is for sure......however that doesn't absolve Network Rail for their responsibility for both securing their premises properly and securing a dangerous material in accordance with the regulations. If the Fog Signals had been secured properly then the teenagers in their recklessness and trespass would not have had access to such material.

No-one is suggesting that the teenagers are not punished for breaking the law, however they are not the only ones responsible for doing so.