I have no idea what you're talking about now!
The salary of both must be enough to bring in people to the profession.
27% turnout yet they are still going on strike.
- Thread starter Danthus
- Start date
I have no idea what you're talking about now!
The salary of both must be enough to bring in people to the profession.
Hah, hardly, the only reason's people would want to teach is either because they have always wanted to or have nowhere else to turn.
From page 5 of the report that you've linked to:
Table 2. Range of average salaries of full time, first degree 2010 leavers who entered full-time employment in the UK by type of work
Health professionals (e.g. doctors, dentists and pharmacists) £23,430 - £26,955
Teaching professionals (e.g. secondary and primary school teachers) £19,195 - £23,000
You've listed a figure for junior doctor below the minimum given for health professionals.
The figure for Junior Doctor is fixed from the NHS Careers Service and is for newly graduated Junior Doctors in their first foundation year, it is not an average but a static figure that applies across the NHS.
http://www.nhscareers.nhs.uk/explore-by-career/doctors/pay-for-doctors/
The figure for teachers comes from the DoE figures and are an average.
http://www.education.gov.uk/get-into-teaching/salary.aspx
Can you tell me what a teachers working hours are?
The only thing i can think of that teachers have got as a perk of their job is:
- Lots of holiday (although this is slightly offset by the fact that they can't take any holiday outside of school holidays, and foreign holidays during school holidays go up astronomically in price)
- Job satisfaction (if that exists anymore?)
- Job security
- Lots of holiday (although this is slightly offset by the fact that they can't take any holiday outside of school holidays, and foreign holidays during school holidays go up astronomically in price)
- Job satisfaction (if that exists anymore?)
- Job security
Jesus.. if life is so tough being a teacher do what everyone in the private sector does.. either put up and shut up or get another job... no one is forcing you to be a teacher.. if your all so massively under valued and excellent at your jobs I am sure with those sorts of transferable skills you can find much better employment in the clearly gold plated private sector..
Everyone has it tough at the moment and the public sector do themselves no good with their constant moaning..
Everyone has it tough at the moment and the public sector do themselves no good with their constant moaning..
http://www.usethekey.org.uk/popular-articles/directed-time-organising-the-1-265-hours
So if we divide the hours by 46.4 weeks (5.6 weeks statutory holiday) then they effectively work a 26.6 hour week..if we say they spend another full working day each week on average preparing lessons and duties not directly teaching (in addition to the PPA already within the directed hours) we are at an average working week of 35.5 hours, which is below the average working week of 42.7 hours per week.
Of course some teachers are more dedicated or less able to manage their time as well as others so might work more, others may be better at time management or be less dedicated and work less! Newer teachers without a portfolio build up may work longer until they have both learned the techniques and built up a portfolio, but that is true across many professions, in some the hours are a nightmare, I remember my wife working 70-80 hour weeks when she was a newly qualified accountant, for less money than is being bandied around here as well.......but anyway, back to the the average, even adding in additional time outside of school for prep it still lower.
In any case I am not saying that Teachers do not deserve good salaries, good holidays and so on...only that they are not as badly off as it is being portrayed when compared to other comparable professions.
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I was talking off the back of your comment really, to the OP and the general gist of these sorts of threads.
I'm not too sure on English and Welsh health & education so I couldn't comment. Here it is, but we've got an entirely different system and relationship.
Why can't they try to improve the behavour of their employer by showing their dissatisfaction? It is ultimately to their employer they are complaining too, not the public.
Perhaps it's got something to do with the instability of what has been poorly handled reform, reduction and in some perception attacks outwith this scope.
Are there any comparisons between private and public sector teachers?
I haven't looked...I doubt private schools release such info. However given the issues bought up by staff in a recent closure of a private school (Norman Court) near us, if we use that as a comparison then the average public sector Teacher is more secure and has better pension and advancement provision, I suspect that salaries are dependent on the institution and the level of the teaching.
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So you think we cannot ascertain a comparison?
How are they overpaid, work shorter hours and recieve better holidays in that case?
Surely a comparison to the same profession in the opposite sector is better than comparing one profession in one sector to another whole sector..
You can compare starting salaries and other parameters across a range of professions, we are comparing teachers to other graduate professions (both private and public) and also against average wages and working terms such as holiday entitlements and working hours it is not limited to public v private sector teaching...
We are comparing a profession against averages in the workplace anyway, whether it is public or private is largely immaterial except where claims are being made that one sector is specifically worse off than another....
I also never said they were overpaid, only that they earn above average wages, work below average hours and have above average holiday entitlement....and I gave the basis for that calculation.
EDIT: It appears that Private Sector Teaching is actually considerably less well paid than Public Sector Teaching according to several teaching forums.
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an F1 doctor is more like a PGCE trainee... IIRC they get something like a 10k grant
long holidays are one thing but trying to argue teachers are well paid is laughable
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Who is we?
I'm not asking who is doing what, I'm asking what is most fair.
I took your comments as to be specific to teaching, so that was in reference to a whole economic medium of conditions and not one appropriate directly to that profession?
I've long said the place in the economy is superflous, but want to know who it is that has decided on this method of comparison, and is it fair.
In terms of remuneration I don't think many have argued particuarly heavy for either bias, what I and the union official in the BBC article I quoted were talking about is more intangible. Morale, relationships and engagement.
Castiel said:
Fair enough, but the sentiment at least appeared to give that impression but if it is not your opinion I accept that. It seemed to be a put up or shut up, and it isn't all about terms and conditions and I'm still questioning the validity of the comparison that seems to be prevailent in the wider discussions that take place around this topic.
This was my understanding. Interestingly, the public sector has far more problems with recruitment and retention than private schools, which is why the latter can get way with lower wages. Even at those supposedly inflated wages, many comprehensives in big cities seriously struggle to get any staff, never mind good ones.
All of which begs the important question: given that, as a general rule, competence is a function of wages (among other factors of course) - pay peanuts etc - do people think that teachers should be good, or merely adequate?
Surely it's an argument against centrally controlled national pay bargaining and management of a school's ability to recruit staff and to dictate how many pupils (and therefore their income and budget) they have?
Trainee teachers on an employment based route are paid according to a qualified scale in most cases, and an unqualified scale in some others, the figures given are representative of this....Newly Qualified Teachering Scales are comparable to Newly Qualified Doctors scales.....
Not when you look at the total potential career salary ranges available....experienced teachers can earn anywhere between £42k and £64k and in some cases this is also increased with other payments and allowances, supervisory teachers and head teachers can earn in excess of £112k...these are not indicative of poor pay. You can reasonably argue that teachers should be well paid anyway, and I agree...however it is disingenous to portray teaching as some poorly paid dead end profession, it isn't.
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****ing disgraceful that teachers feel they deserve anything more than they've got, they get their own way 9 times out of 10 with everything from internal politics to government pay, pensions and so on.
What do school support staff get on the other hand? Nothing but ****, support staff do just as much work, get just as much grief, yet have to go on earning £10k+ per year less while waiting on teaching staff hand and foot, most of them even treat support staff like worthless dirt.
Wonder if the government will ever unfreeze public sector pay (annual cost of living rises)......
Biggest problem with teachers is that the vast majority start teaching straight out of uni, then follow the teaching career for their entire lives. They never gain any REAL world experience and end up frustratingly naive because of it.
Then they become senior members of staff, in control of big pots of money, then some become head teachers in control of the entire schools government supplied finances, again without any REAL world experience, and that's why over the years we get so many news stories of mega wasted money in schools, splashing out on stupid contracts, because they THINK they know what they're doing. Eventually you end up with some fatcat paid over £100k a year splashing money on everything and anything, taxpayers money i might add.........seen it first hand more than once.
What do school support staff get on the other hand? Nothing but ****, support staff do just as much work, get just as much grief, yet have to go on earning £10k+ per year less while waiting on teaching staff hand and foot, most of them even treat support staff like worthless dirt.
Wonder if the government will ever unfreeze public sector pay (annual cost of living rises)......
Biggest problem with teachers is that the vast majority start teaching straight out of uni, then follow the teaching career for their entire lives. They never gain any REAL world experience and end up frustratingly naive because of it.
Then they become senior members of staff, in control of big pots of money, then some become head teachers in control of the entire schools government supplied finances, again without any REAL world experience, and that's why over the years we get so many news stories of mega wasted money in schools, splashing out on stupid contracts, because they THINK they know what they're doing. Eventually you end up with some fatcat paid over £100k a year splashing money on everything and anything, taxpayers money i might add.........seen it first hand more than once.
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