US official killed in embassy raid in Libya

[MiKeOnE10110]

The ridiculous things is, if you actually read my posts you'll see I've gone to lengths not to generalise and point out this is primarily a cultural issue, not a religious one. But maybe this just clearly demonstrates what you want to see.

I must disagree with the point you make about this being a cultural issue, yes culture has some impact on it but by in large it has more to do with the religion. How could it be made any clearer to you, they kill people for drawing pictures of their Mohamed all over the place. Remember the dutch film maker who was stabbed to death, how about the cartoon pics that appeared in the French satirical paper Charlie Hebdo, or the ones in Denmark, how about the ones in Germany.

The list goes on and on, guess what they all have in common Islam, let's not even talk about the 50 people they killed on 7/7 or the 700 that were injured by BRITISH born Muslims. So yeah it's definitely more about Islam itself than culture as the mountains of evidence clearly shows.

 

[NeilF]

I must disagree with the point you make about this being a cultural issue, yes culture has some impact on it but by in large it has more to do with the religion. How could it be made any clearer to you, they kill people for drawing pictures of their Mohamed all over the place. Remember the dutch film maker who was stabbed to death, how about the cartoon pics that appeared in the French satirical paper Charlie Hebdo, or the ones in Denmark, how about the ones in Germany.

The list goes on and on, guess what they all have in common Islam, let's not even talk about the 50 people they killed on 7/7 or the 700 that were injured by BRITISH born Muslims. So yeah it's definitely more about Islam itself than culture as the mountains of evidence clearly shows.

I'd have to disagree personally - I used to have a similar view (to yours) and see the problem as primarily Islam/Muslim. But after a nice long discussion many years ago on this very forum a number of other posters made me look at things differently.

I now see the whole Islamic violence issue as more of a cultural issue. Consider the violent protests going on at the moment? Where are they? ie: Within what cultures? Why not everywhere?

 

[MiKeOnE10110]

I'd have to disagree personally - I used to have a similar view (to yours) and see the problem as primarily Islam/Muslim. But after a nice long discussion many years ago on this very forum a number of other posters made me look at things differently.

I now see the whole Islamic violence issue as more of a cultural issue. Consider the violent protests going on at the moment? Where are they? ie: Within what cultures? Why not everywhere?

So you completely disregard all the news stories I pointed out? or the UK killings done by people born here, so you're saying it is the British/Dutch/German/French/Belgian/Danish culture to kill people in the name of Islam erm what?

You're falling into the trap of tolerating the intolerable through pressure of political correctness. I'll stick with calling it what it is, until the majority of the Brits finally call it for what it is. I think mark twain said it best in situations like this, because it takes guts to hold to what you believe when everyone else is scrambling to make the most pathetic excuses.

"In the beginning of a change the patriot is a scarce man, and brave, and hated and scorned. When his cause succeeds, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." - Mark Twain

 

[dowie]

It's Prophet not Profit

oops - that was a bit of a fail, think I was looking at the Benghazi photos of people protesting against the attack on CNN when I posted so misspelt it without thinking.

Also nice try, bringing up Shiasm will fall flat on your face.

Why do you say that?

 

[NeilF]

So you completely disregard all the news stories I pointed out? or the UK killings done by people born here, so you're saying it is the British/Dutch/German/French/Belgian/Danish culture to kill people in the name of Islam erm what?

Oh, absolutely not. And I started a thread just this week addressing my confusion over this very matter - http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showthread.php?t=18441264


But although there is some sort of strange relationship between Islam and mindless violence (yes I consider violence over just words and ideology as mindless) causing a fanatical few to go on the rampage, I would still argue it is predominantly bedded in the culture behind that religion.

 

[zoomee]

No one noticed that all the violence is in countries that have been de-stabilised by the 'evil westerners' ? - Then you wonder why this 'catalyst' is followed by real violence....

Not to mention the usual media sensationalist reporting of anything anti-islamic - pffft.

 

[Craterloads]

Oh, absolutely not. And I started a thread just this week addressing my confusion over this very matter - http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showthread.php?t=18441264


But although there is some sort of strange relationship between Islam and mindless violence (yes I consider violence over just words and ideology as mindless) causing a fanatical few to go on the rampage, I would still argue it is predominantly bedded in the culture behind that religion.

As pointed out to in your thread its not just in cultures the are linked with Islam.

Just look at the EDL and similar groups in the UK. Mindless violent thugs.

 

[[TW]Fox]

So now they are trashing a kfc franchise owned by and staffed by locals because the brand comes from the same country the film apparently does? Just... What?

They are doing many times more harm to their religion than the ridiculous trailer did in the first place.

 

[Craterloads]

So now they are trashing a kfc franchise owned by and staffed by locals because the brand comes from the same country the film apparently does? Just... What?

They are doing many times more harm to their religion than the ridiculous trailer did in the first place.

I have to agree, the stupidity of these people is beyond comprehensions.

You're doing exactly what the creator of the film wanted you to do like dumb little puppets.

 

[zoomee]

So now they are trashing a kfc franchise owned by and staffed by locals because the brand comes from the same country the film apparently does? Just... What?

They are doing many times more harm to their religion than the ridiculous trailer did in the first place.

+1

It does demonstrate quite clearly though, that these are anti-american protests - the trialer was just the 'catalyst'.

 

[NeilF]

So now they are trashing a kfc franchise owned by and staffed by locals because the brand comes from the same country the film apparently does? Just... What?

They are doing many times more harm to their religion than the ridiculous trailer did in the first place.

...and an important point of course is the trailer actually did no damage to their religion in the first place.

I do hope that there is not the slightest action against the producers of the video, else this violence could be seen as worthwhile and maybe provoke further violence over other matters in the future.

 

[zoomee]

Hilary Clinton has already been on record stating that she condemns the video and confirms it was designed to 'intice a response'.....

In a bilateral meeting at the State Department in Washington with her Moroccan counterpart, Saad-Eddine Al-Otmani, Hillary Clinton described the anti-Islam film as "disgusting and reprehensible."
"It appears to have a deeply cynical purpose, to denigrate a great religion and to provoke rage," she said.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...Islam-film-disgusting-and-reprehensible.html#

 

[Kazz]

I think we've covered the fact that they don't think along the same lines as we do.

Mixed with the fact they're obviously nutters as well of course.

 

[trigger-happy]

So to summarise - The current suggestion is now there were no demonstration(s) at the embassy in question. Instead a (well planned) terrorist attack was carried out. That would explain how the guards were overcome!

And separate to this, we now have all the violence/demonstrations at other embassy's around the globe due the video?

it would seem so! the other riots seem to be relating to the video which is normal uproar for anything offensive to any religion tbh. but this event that happened in Libya seemed to be planned and the Americans had full knowledge but they didn't even pull their people out.

Now they are accusing those terrorists of raping the us ambassador before he died. I think that's milking it a little.

http://www.examiner.com/article/lebanese-report-us-ambassador-raped-before-murdered

 

[NeilF]

which is normal uproar for anything offensive to any religion tbh.

Are you sure about this? Someone else has put it far better than I ever could - http://www.theonion.com/articles/no-one-murdered-because-of-this-image,29553/ (Note: Slightly offensive adult cartoon image)

but this event that happened in Libya seemed to be planned and the Americans had full knowledge but they didn't even pull their people out.

Hmmm... Sounds a bit conspiracy crazy to me TBH.

 

[Locky]

The west should pull out of middle east and let them kill each other. But one thing is stopping that.. OIL.

 

[lttlejoe]

There's an old saying:
Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large enough numbers!

 

[Xordium]

If you had used accountable, responsible or culpable, they all to mean an allocation of blame towards the maker(s).

But strangely enough each of those words would apportion blame differently hence my choice of words. Nowhere have I said it absolves the idiots who performed those acts or the people who most likely orchestrated it. Yet the fact remains that video was not produced for comedic value it was produced to offend and the resulting actions from that whether orchestrated or not have add a significant amount of fuel to a very sensitive situation.

The fact that you see nothing wrong with that video speaks volumes. It isn't satire there is no comedy there it was made to offend and unfortunately there are some very ill-educated and angry people who will be more than happy to be offended. Something the American administration seem to agree with and yet you don't.

 

[NeilF]

But strangely enough each of those words would apportion blame differently hence my choice of words. Nowhere have I said it absolves the idiots who performed those acts or the people who most likely orchestrated it. Yet the fact remains that video was not produced for comedic value it was produced to offend and the resulting actions from that whether orchestrated or not have add a significant amount of fuel to a very sensitive situation.

The fact that you see nothing wrong with that video speaks volumes. It isn't satire there is no comedy there it was made to offend and unfortunately there are some very ill-educated and angry people who will be more than happy to be offended. Something the American administration seem to agree with and yet you don't.

I can now agree with some of what you're saying.

However, the issue we clearly disagree on is if the video is in anyway to blame. You've deemed it was "not produced for comedic value". Can I ask what qualifies you for this comment? How do you know others do not find it funny? How do you know the makers (or dubbers) did not aim it at irony?

When we apoint ourselves moral guardians of freespeech it's dangerous. Especially when it's regarding such trivial subject matter such as this. And I say trivial because it can all be easily ignored by simply not watching it.

So I can understand your view on this, but I'm afraid I cannot agree with it.


The fact some of the American administration are knee jerking against this video IMHO is unfortunately counter productive. It implies these tactics of violence have value or merit. They should be deplored and scorned no matter what the reason for them. The video is inconsequencial and does not deserve the time of day, yet alone apologies. The only thing worth consideration is how a culture can produce people who believe violence is acceptable in reponse to nothing more than words and hearsay.

 

[Craterloads]

I can now agree with some of what you're saying.

However, the issue we clearly disagree on is if the video is in anyway to blame. You've deemed it was "not produced for comedic value". Can I ask what qualifies you for this comment? How do you know others do not find it funny? How do you know the makers (or dubbers) did not aim it at irony?

When we apoint ourselves moral guardians of freespeech it's dangerous. Especially when it's regarding such trivial subject matter such as this. And I say trivial because it can all be easily ignored by simply not watching it.

So I can understand your view on this, but I'm afraid I cannot agree with it.


The fact some of the American administration are knee jerking against this video IMHO is unfortunately counter productive. It implies these tactics of violence have value or merit. They should be deplored and scorned no matter what the reason for them. The video is inconsequencial and does not deserve the time of day, yet alone apologies. The only thing worth consideration is how a culture can produce people who believe violence is acceptable in reponse to nothing more than words and hearsay.

I agree with your latter points, violence is not the answer which is used by people in ALL cultures for various typed of perceived insults.

To your first point, if you think the film was created for comedic purposes you are either delusional or are purposely being ignorant. Yes i believe some of the blame should be on his shoulders as what he has done is purposely create something to cause offence.

Nakoula Basseley Nakoula is apparently the creator, a Coptic Christian, who intentionally tried to blame Jews for his work to ratchet up tensions between Jews and Muslims.

The actors who'd responded to a July 2011 casting call thought they were making an adventure film set 2,000 years ago called "Desert Warrior." That's how Backstage magazine and other acting publications described it.

The American-made movie, it turns out, was hardly an innocent desert action flick.

Instead, the movie, backed by hardcore anti-Islam groups in the United States, is a tome on Islam as fraud. In trailers posted on YouTube in July, viewers saw this: scene after scene of the Prophet Mohammed portrayed as a womanizer, buffoon, ruthless killer and child molester

Its is a "grossly offensive communication" which a young man was recently found guilty of in the UK.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/uk...pK3BMAdAR5y4BZyGg?docId=N0173331347626432336A