Privatising the NHS

MrMoonX said:
shhh dolph we all know you have some sort of crusade against the entire NHS based on probably a bad experience, well good luck with virgin health cos youre gonna be left dying on a trolly as they will cut corners and staffing to make money
Click to expand...

and you would happily sacrifice the lives of people, good education for children and a whole host of other things to maintain your authoritarian left client state.

I work on evidence, the evidence is there that our system does not produce results. your ideological blindness ignores evidence in favour of propaganda and lies.
 
Why do we hate and spend so much tax money on preventing and breaking up monopolies on consumer choice? Everyone agrees that a monopoly on choice is bad for the consumer, so why are so many sheep so willing to bend over and accept a monopoly when it comes to such crucial things as health?

As long as healthcare remains universal and publicly funded (which it is), I don't care who delivers it.

In fact, I want more than one vendor to deliver it, so I can vote with my feet and select a different healthcare provider if I find another is not up to scratch.
 
Hatter The Mad said:
Why do we hate and spend so much tax money on preventing and breaking up monopolies on consumer choice? Everyone agrees that a monopoly on choice is bad for the consumer, so why are so many sheep so willing to bend over and accept a monopoly when it comes to such crucial things as health?

As long as healthcare remains universal and publicly funded (which it is), I don't care who delivers it.

In fact, I want more than one vendor to deliver it, so I can vote with my feet and select a different healthcare provider if I find another is not up to scratch.
Click to expand...

Its flawed though when all those healthcare providers are in it to make money not to care. This issue with private healthcare is that they only exist to satisfy shareholders and fat cat bosses. They only care that you're ill as they make money from you, and will do so with minimal outlay. A nationalised healthcare system as we have barely at the moment means that it only exists to care not to make money.

You simply cannot ignore that all the professionals who live and work with the NHS dont want this as its bad for patients.
 
Dolph said:
and you would happily sacrifice the lives of people, good education for children and a whole host of other things to maintain your authoritarian left client state.

I work on evidence, the evidence is there that our system does not produce results. your ideological blindness ignores evidence in favour of propaganda and lies.
Click to expand...

No making vodafone etc. pay the right amount of taxes plus making the banks pay back the mega bailouts would provide more than enough to wipe out any deficit.
 
Dolph said:
your ideological blindness ignores evidence in favour of propaganda and lies.
Click to expand...

Feels appropriate..

To A Louse;

Ha! whaur ye gaun, ye crowlin ferlie?
Your impudence protects you sairly;
I canna say but ye strunt rarely,
Owre gauze and lace;
Tho', faith! I fear ye dine but sparely
On sic a place.

Ye ugly, creepin, blastit wonner,
Detested, shunn'd by saunt an' sinner,
How daur ye set your fit upon her -
Sae fine a lady?
Gae somewhere else and seek your dinner
On some poor body.

Swith! in some beggar's haffet squattle;
There ye may creep, and sprawl, and sprattle,
Wi' ither kindred, jumping cattle,
In shoals and nations;
Whaur horn nor bane ne'er daur unsettle
Your thick plantations.

Now haud you there, ye're out o' sight,
Below the fatt'rels, snug and tight;
Na, faith ye yet! ye'll no be right,
Till ye've got on it -
The verra tapmost, tow'rin height
O' Miss' bonnet.



My sooth! right bauld ye set your nose out,
As plump an' grey as ony groset:
O for some rank, mercurial rozet,
Or fell, red smeddum,
I'd gie you sic a hearty dose o't,
Wad dress your droddum.

I wad na been surpris'd to spy
You on an auld wife's flainen toy;
Or aiblins some bit dubbie boy,
On's wyliecoat;
But Miss' fine Lunardi! fye!
How daur ye do't?

O Jenny, dinna toss your head,
An' set your beauties a' abread!
Ye little ken what cursed speed
The blastie's makin:
Thae winks an' finger-ends, I dread,
Are notice takin.

O wad some Power the giftie gie us
To see oursels as ithers see us!
It wad frae mony a blunder free us,
An' foolish notion:
What airs in dress an' gait wad lea'e us,
An' ev'n devotion!


Although I have to say I'm actually not a massive Burns fan. Nonetheless...
 
Biohazard said:
Perhaps you should take a leaf out of the Scottish example; again?

Or do we not count due to our UK insignificance factor? ;)
Click to expand...

Why on earth would we do that when Scotland's performance is substantially worse than the rest of the uk's?

jrsm.rsmjournals.com/content/104/9/370.full

in 2009, deaths amenable to healthcare as follows:

Scotland, male: 105.4 per 100k
Scotland, female: 82.9 per 100k
England, male: 83.5 per 100k
England, female: 67.9 per 100k

Before jumping in, it would probably be best to actually check really...
 
MrMoonX said:
Its flawed though when all those healthcare providers are in it to make money not to care. This issue with private healthcare is that they only exist to satisfy shareholders and fat cat bosses. They only care that you're ill as they make money from you, and will do so with minimal outlay.
Click to expand...
Why do you think that we (the consumers) would put up with poor care? If someone cut corners and delivered a shoddy service, we'd just go someplace else.

Your argument is flawed. You're only arguing from the perspective where capitalism applies a force on the supplier to cut costs. You're completely forgetting the opposing pressure from recipients who demand quality. If the consumer demands care, then care is what will be provided. If one vendor provides better care than another, people will use that vendor. How can you not see that?

Price is driven down to competition yes, but quality is driven up due to competition too.
 
MrMoonX said:
No making vodafone etc. pay the right amount of taxes plus making the banks pay back the mega bailouts would provide more than enough to wipe out any deficit.
Click to expand...

no, it wouldn't. the deficit is circa £140bn per year, the bank bailout added a one off £120bn, much of which has already been paid back, and even the most generous (ie not based in any form of reality) estimates of tax avoidance don't put the figure over £100bn.

I know a complete lack of economic understanding is pretty much compulsory for the left, but this is basic maths...
 
Hatter The Mad said:
Why do you think that we (the consumers) would put up with poor care? If someone cut corners and delivered a shoddy service, we'd just go someplace else.

Your argument is flawed. You're only arguing from the perspective where capitalism applies a force on the supplier to cut costs. You're completely forgetting the opposing pressure from recipients who demand quality.

If your argument was correct, then nothing we buy from a private firm would ever work and would be of consistently poor quality. I point you to cars, computers, TVs, fridges, life support machines, furniture, food, and so on.

Price is driven down to competition yes, but quality is driven up due to competition too.
Click to expand...

but when you have no choice as all the healthcare providers are running it as a cartel you cant go elsewhere. This will happen, just look at fuel prices.

Fundamentally healthcare should not be run for profit, why should greedy capitalist's make money out of people being sick, its immoral
 
MrMoonX said:
No making vodafone etc. pay the right amount of taxes plus making the banks pay back the mega bailouts would provide more than enough to wipe out any deficit.
Click to expand...
Vodafone (et al) do pay the right amount of taxes. The banks can't pay back the 'mega bailouts' right now, but when they do, we'll be in pocket.
 
Xordium said:
Preempting Dolph's standard 68 billion 1000 million and 68 extra deaths attributable to the NHS appeal to emotion I'll post the subsequent data which says the following:
Click to expand...

I use data on patient outcomes, you use a study that ignores bad outcomes if it was cheap enough, and you think this works in defence of the current setup?
 
Dolph said:
Why on earth would we do that when Scotland's performance is substantially worse than the rest of the uk's?

jrsm.rsmjournals.com/content/104/9/370.full

in 2009, deaths amenable to healthcare as follows:

Scotland, male: 105.4 per 100k
Scotland, female: 82.9 per 100k
England, male: 83.5 per 100k
England, female: 67.9 per 100k

Before jumping in, it would probably be best to actually check really...
Click to expand...

That wasn't what you said;

Dolph said:
no improvements in deaths amenable to healthcare.
Click to expand...

Which there has been. On all healthcare systems by all accounts it would appear.

Perhaps if you didn't jump in with the absolute statements your intent may not be mistaken?
 
MrMoonX said:
but when you have no choice as all the healthcare providers are running it as a cartel you cant go elsewhere.
Click to expand...
That's what we have now - a cartel, and we can't go elsewhere. But why do you think healthcare would suddenly turn into a cartel, whereas shops, supermarkets, plumbers, banks and lawyers don't?


Fundamentally healthcare should not be run for profit, why should greedy capitalist's make money out of people being sick, its immoral
Click to expand...
They already do, and it has been working wonders. Who do you think invents, innovates and builds MRI machines? Life support machines? Implants? Pace makers? New drugs? ECG machines? Oxygen machines? Private companies do. Is that immoral and are we seeing broadly poor quality in those products?

Why shouldn't it be run for profit, when the profit motive is pretty much the only thing which has driven up our standards of living and healthcare?

Nurses and other NHS employees profit from people being sick. Is that immoral? Should we not pay them and simply conscript them?
 
Hatter The Mad said:
That's what we have now - a cartel, and we can't go elsewhere. But why do you think healthcare would suddenly turn into a cartel, whereas shops, supermarkets, plumbers, banks and lawyers don't?


They already do, and it has been working wonders. Who do you think invents, innovates and builds MRI machines? Life support machines? Implants? Pace makers? New drugs? ECG machines? Oxygen machines? Private companies do. Is that immoral and are we seeing broadly poor quality in those products?

Why shouldn't it be run for profit, when the profit motive is pretty much the only thing which has driven up our standards of living and healthcare?

Nurses and other NHS employees profit from people being sick. Is that immoral? Should we not pay them and simply conscript them?
Click to expand...

nurse profit from sick people??? did you really just say that :rolleyes:

oh and if you think supermarkets and banks arent like cartels then why did the OFT investigate all of them for price fixing, they are all bang at it to keep prices high and money in their pockets
 
MrMoonX said:
Dolph's whole argument over the NHS just went BOOOOM! :p
Click to expand...

Except, of course, that it didn't. I've never made the economic argument, beyond that our massive increases in spending haven't improved our outcomes.

I have argued, specifically, that we need to restructure to bring our deaths amenable to healthcare down to a level more consistent with other european countries, and the way to do that is to take on their mixed provision model, as spending increases have not improved the situation.

It is a really bad sign that you cannot debate the argument actually being made, rather than the one that exists in your head.
 
Biohazard said:
That wasn't what you said;



Which there has been. On all healthcare systems by all accounts it would appear.

Perhaps if you didn't jump in with the absolute statements your intent may not be mistaken?
Click to expand...

Apologies, I should have said that our rate of improvement has not improved significantly when compared to the rate of change of other european countries, Deaths amenable to healthcare are improving across the board, but the rate of improvement is the key.
 
Dolph said:
Apologies, I should have said that our rate of improvement has not improved significantly when compared to the rate of change of other european countries, Deaths amenable to healthcare are improving across the board, but the rate of improvement is the key.
Click to expand...

That's ok.

The UK had above average amenable mortality in 1997 and we are now just below the OECD average apparently.

While there is still distance between ourselves and other nations, to rubbish and ignore the progress that has been made is decidely disingenuous I can't help but feel.

In which way is the rate of improvement key, where specifically are you faulting it?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom