Scottish independence referendum deal agreed.

Castiel said:
Not in the rest of UK you can't get married without Parental Permission. I concede this is not the case in Scotland.

However....

You can't join without parental permission and you cannot see any active duty until 18.....you can't legally drink alcohol (in most cases), buy a solvent, buy cigarettes, gamble, represent your constituency, buy fireworks, obtain credit, apply for a mortgage, and a whole range of other things because it is deemed that under 18 you are still a child and (generally) regarded to be to immature to make such decisions without consent or supervision.

If you want 16/17 year old to vote and think they have the maturity and ability as a group to make sound political decisions then they should also have all the other rights that an adult has, including those I mentioned.......

And you do get to have a say in the future of your country..when you are 18, until then, like many other things it is the duty of the Parent/Guardian to assume responsiblity for the welfare of their child.
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You can legally drink alcohol at that age (and below). You can't legally buy it, but you can drink it. I suppose you could claim that the lottery is a form of gambling, and one that you are permitted to do at 16.

I suppose the argument for solvent/cigarettes being at 18 rather than 16 could have something to do with the effect that ingesting such things will be extra damaging to the health of a 16 year old compared to an 18. But, that's by the by.

As for credit, I think that's down more to convention rather than because they are unable to handle such a thing. I have no problem with providing a 16/17 year old with credit providing they have the means to pay for it and understand the implications.

I've accepted that you need your parents permission to join the armed forces, but the point remains that you are able to do so.

I think it's strange that you can do so many things at 16/17, and live as an independent adult (and are treated in law as such) but you aren't deemed responsible enough to decide on the future of your country. If you can live independently from your parents with your wife, pay taxes, have children, be sent to prison, and so on, then why aren't you mature enough to be able to vote for such an important decision?
 
Conanius said:
I think its personally quite an interesting question, and I'd guess that theres a lot of people in Wales now thinking 'we want independence lolz'

I'd be interested to see real facts, from a trusted unbiased source as to whether Wales and Scotland could even really afford independence from the current set up financially. Aren't they two of the poorest countries in Europe?
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They are?

News to me. If the second most prosperous nation in the UK is a poverty striken mess, what is that saying for the United Kingdom?

:confused:

/Oh noes, reverses out of thread
 
Let the lying from both sided commence. I fully expect this to be a classic example of the fallacy of democracy.
 
Castiel said:
I'll move my response to this thread as it is more relevant.



The problem for me is not whether they are allowed to vote or not, to be honest I don't really care one way or the other, but that they can vote but not have the other responsibilities that go with that, along with all the other rights and responsibilities that are conveyed when you are 18, including being called upon to fight in defence of the country, working the same hours as everyone else, being limited to same employment rights as everyone else and so on....if they want to be given the same rights as an Adult to vote then they need also to take all the other rights and responsibilities of being an adult also....one of the biggest issues is being able to vote for someone, but being deemed not old enough to stand against someone.....if you give the vote to 16/17 year old, then you should also lower the age with which they can stand to voted for.....
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They can already vote and stand for the Youth Parliament. As young as 14.

No taxation without representation!!
 
Should be done after the major election, seems like the conservatives are hoping to get a yes from the scotish so they don't get the vote for the next elections which if the scotish do vote would most likely cost the tories the next government. sneeky thing to do from the tories.
 
minister said:
Should be done after the major election, seems like the conservatives are hoping to get a yes from the scotish so they don't get the vote for the next elections which if the scotish do vote would most likely cost the tories the next government. sneeky thing to do from the tories.
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What? I'm not sure what you're trying to say. But if they count up the votes on the 12th November 2014 (or whenever it is held, Big Eck says he knows when but he's not telling us ATM) and it turns out to be a win for 'Yes' (assuming the question is - "Do you want Scotland to become independent from the UK"), that doesn't mean Scotland will be an independent country on the 13th. It'll take a long time (years) before that happens.
 
Ahleckz said:
I think it's strange that you can do so many things at 16/17, and live as an independent adult (and are treated in law as such) but you aren't deemed responsible enough to decide on the future of your country. If you can live independently from your parents with your wife, pay taxes, have children, be sent to prison, and so on, then why aren't you mature enough to be able to vote for such an important decision?
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The issue is that you are not treated as an Adult at 16/17....there are certain rights and responsibilities that are given at 16/17, but if they want to vote and have the same rights of representation as an\Adult, then they should also assume the same responsibilities as an Adult in all things...not only those deemed suitable....16/17 is a transnational period, not one that convey full rights and majority.

Things like employment, prison, armed forces, marriage (in most of the UK), the abilty to buy restricted goods, see/buy restricted media and the myriad of other things that are either not permitted or limited for 16/17 year olds means that society doesn't see them as mature enough to make such an important decision objectively or with the experience and knowledge required to do so.....It is an exercise in boosting one side of the argument as it is generally seen that the Youth are more rebellious to the status quo and toward the authority...they will generally be more easily persuaded than someone older to the different position regardless of whether it is a better one or not.

But regardless, if 16/17 year olds get the vote, then they should also be treated as adults in every other aspect of their lives and should not be given extra protections that 18 year olds and over do not have.... you cannot have it both ways.
 
Castiel said:
It is an exercise in boosting one side of the argument as it is generally seen that the Youth are more rebellious to the status quo and toward the authority...they will generally be more easily persuaded than someone older to the different position regardless of whether it is a better one or not.
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No it isn't, the effect has been shown to be pretty negligable. It is about empowering and engaging youth into politics. It has cross party support - the principle at least - and now cross Parliament support for the independence referendum.

I've heard just as many heated discussions both for and against in that age bracket, the impression that they are all mini kilted 'freedom fighters' is just not quite matching the reality.
 
Biohazard said:
They can already vote and stand for the Youth Parliament. As young as 14.

No taxation without representation!!
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The Youth Parliament....lol.

Even the people involved in the Youth Parliament admit it is a bit of a joke....with the sort of daft representations and immature positions being pursued and debated that people are critical of.

And they have representation, through their legal guardians and parents....who represent them until they are 18.
 
Castiel said:
The Youth Parliament....lol.
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What is so funny about the Youth Parliament and all the work they put in?



Castiel said:
Even the people involved in the Youth Parliament admit it is a bit of a joke....with the sort of daft representations and immature positions being pursued and debated that people are critical of.
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Such as who? :confused:

Most of the people I've met who were voted into the SYP take their role and opportunity very seriously indeed.

Castiel said:
And they have representation, through their legal guardians and parents....who represent them until they are 18.
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That is not their political representation, that is their parents own political representation for their own views... not for their children.
 
Ahleckz said:
What? I'm not sure what you're trying to say. But if they count up the votes on the 12th November 2014 (or whenever it is held, Big Eck says he knows when but he's not telling us ATM) and it turns out to be a win for 'Yes' (assuming the question is - "Do you want Scotland to become independent from the UK"), that doesn't mean Scotland will be an independent country on the 13th. It'll take a long time (years) before that happens.
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They could argue that if they vote independence than they could lose teh right to vote for a uk government.
 
Biohazard said:
They can already vote and stand for the Youth Parliament. As young as 14.

No taxation without representation!!
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what about no representation without net taxation? surely it should cut both ways?

also, why does no taxation without representation not apply to businesses?
 
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