PCM Parking Ticket - Windsor

Tiswas · 17 Oct 2012 at 12:55

About 10 days a go I went to Windsor to have a look about etc and parked in the Windsor Castle Car park (paid for two hours). I got back to find the guy writing a fine as I was late by 7 mins. Fine was £100 or if paid in 14 days its £60. I've accepted it is what it is, some say you gave 15mins grace period but can't find anything to confirm that.

So went to pay the fine online and the site doesn't recognise the ticket number, I have emailed them to tell them that I have tried to pay online and also for it to be logged that I have tried to pay in case they start sending threatening letters after the 14 days and to date I have had no reply. I would have called to pay but they then charge even more for paying the fine over the phone.

Anyway just wondered if anyone else had grief with parking tickets? I am sure there are a lot of us who have.

Russinating · 17 Oct 2012 at 12:59

If it's a private firm then there's pretty much nothing they can do if you don't pay.

covenantuk · 17 Oct 2012 at 13:02

You've notified them, so just wait. It's not unknown for a PCM to never process and you get away with no fine - happened to me twice.

Trifid · 17 Oct 2012 at 13:04

Russinating said:
If it's a private firm then there's pretty much nothing they can do if you don't pay.

This is not true any more. They can now chase the registered keeper to pay.

Pudney · 17 Oct 2012 at 13:04

Russinating said:
If it's a private firm then there's pretty much nothing they can do if you don't pay.

Err, isn't it from the 1st October 2012 that the registered keeper can be found liable for the penalty not just the person who was driving? This was the balance to the legislation making clamping illegal from the same day.

Minstadave · 17 Oct 2012 at 13:06

Don't pay it. You are not entitled to pay a private company punitive fees.

My understanding is that since clamping has been banned it's not clear quite what will happen with these private "invoices" - and understand these are invoices NOT fines.

Previously the only person the company could persue was the driver, however the registered keeper would be contacted but they did not have to reveal who the driver was - meaning they could simply ignore the invoice.

Since the clamping ban the registered keeper is now liable for the invoice too - however it is illegal to impose a punitive fine so all you can be charged is for the loss of income due to you parking in their carpark, which should mean that it is not economically viable to actually chase anyone through the courts for the fee.

If I was in your situation I would simply ignore the ticket and any communication from the company, I doubt they'll drag you into court for a few quid.

Russinating · 17 Oct 2012 at 13:06

Well there you go

needmorespeed · 17 Oct 2012 at 13:10

I do believe only the land owner can take you to court the private parking firms aren't allowed to

Minstadave · 17 Oct 2012 at 13:12

needmorespeed said:
I do believe only the land owner can take you to court the private parking firms aren't allowed to

That is also true iirc.

I'd glady go to court to see them try and justify a ridiculous fee like they're trying to con you with.

feriso · 17 Oct 2012 at 13:16

Just don't pay. Ignore all letters and eventually they will go away. It is a civil charge which is unenforcable in the courts and has no effect on your credit rating. There is a huge thread/section at moneysupermarket.com about this.

MrFeathers · 17 Oct 2012 at 13:18

if you parked on my land and I wrote up a squillion quid fine on a bit of paper, would you give it to me? There is no difference, just ignore the scum

Tiswas · 17 Oct 2012 at 13:22

Thanks for the advice guys.....I'll just leave it and see what happens.

I did google it and saw a lot of issues but it all seemed to be before the clamping was banned so wasn't sure what the situation was since then.

Amazed that the goverment hasn't done anything about this as there seems to be a lot out there on it and its a complete rip off!

Cheers

Rroff · 17 Oct 2012 at 13:36

As he has emailed them to say hes tried to pay this may constitute acceptance of a civil contract giving them grounds to chase it in court but I'm not a lawyer. I'd sit tight and hope they do nothing.

Minstadave · 17 Oct 2012 at 13:57

Rroff said:
As he has emailed them to say hes tried to pay this may constitute acceptance of a civil contract giving them grounds to chase it in court but I'm not a lawyer. I'd sit tight and hope they do nothing.

They have grounds to chase him anyway as the registered keeper is liable, but only the landowner can take him to court and only for loss of revenue.

ShadowMan · 17 Oct 2012 at 14:56

Liable for what? The penalty clause in the "contract"? Not enforceable.

The law changed on 1st October with the introduction of the Protection of Freedoms Act.

Protection of Freedoms Act (England and Wales only)

In England and Wales the Protection of Freedoms Act has introduced some changes that might affect your decision whether to simply ignore a PPC ticket. These changes apply only to parking companies that are also members of the BPA AOS scheme, and are principally:
The PPC may "invite" (not demand, nor require) the RK to provide the details of the driver at the time of the alleged transgression. If the RK doesn't do so, or their invitation is ignored, the PPC is entitled to pursue the RK for whatever charge they are lawfully entitled to from the driver. If the RK does give the name of the driver, the PPC must solely pursue the driver. Therefore as long as the PPC goes through the correct process, relying solely on the argument that "I was not the driver" won't help you. However that is the only change, and if the decision is to ignore then it simply means that the RK ignores rather than the driver.
There is an independent "appeals" process, operated by Parking on Private Land Appeals (POPLA). The grounds on which POPLA will consider an appeal look to be narrow and until the first appeals are heard we don't know the stance it will take. However the appeal costs you nothing and costs the PPC £27+ VAT, so we would recommend that everyone who is so inclined appeals. The best grounds seem to be:
"The parking charge (ticket) exceeds the relevant amount" (if the charge is not valid it should be zero), and;
"I am not liable for the parking charge" (if the charge is an unlawful penalty, or the PPC has no interest in the land to offer a contract, etc there will be no liability)
Even if you lose at POPLA, it's not binding on you and the PPC would still have to go to court if they wanted to pursue their claim. Note that you will have to exhaust the PPC's own so-called "appeals" process before POPLA will consider an appeal to them.
You should be aware that the Protection of Freedoms Act doesn't affect the legal position regarding enforceability of these tickets in any way.

The key bit is the "lawfully entitled to" which in the case of a penalty clause is £0 due to them not being enforceable in contract law.

More info : http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=46975

Rroff · 17 Oct 2012 at 15:10

Minstadave said:
They have grounds to chase him anyway as the registered keeper is liable, but only the landowner can take him to court and only for loss of revenue.

ShadowMan said:
Liable for what? The penalty clause in the "contract"? Not enforceable.

The key bit is the "lawfully entitled to" which in the case of a penalty clause is £0 due to them not being enforceable in contract law.

There have been cases where people have entered into correspondence and thats been used against them in court and the parking company have been awarded costs + penalty charge - theres been atleast 2 people posted about this in similiar threads on here where its happened to them or a family member.

Generally the loss of revenue is very hard for them to prove so any that know what they are up against won't bother with taking it to court but again be very careful in regards to correspondence with them - the usual advice is to ignore them completely from the start.

Tiswas · 29 Oct 2012 at 22:58

Thought I'd give you an update on this..... As the car is a company car they were contacted and the company didn't accept my point, they understood but didn't accept (assume they didn't want the grief) so I paid up and complained but think that's as far as it will go. I'll certainly not use that car park again but mostly I don't like the message this sends to foreign tourists who will have the same hassle visiting one of the more popular tourist destinations in the uk.