Gary McKinnon day of judgement

Yes, the US are greedy. They do start wars and push others around. But like at school, hitting the bully back or hurling insults doesn't help at all. You still need to do things by the rules.

I'd be more than happy to see the extradition agreement torn up if the US is indeed that bad at playing fair regarding it. But it's not really "on" to link the US' recent record with the McKinnon case - it should be judged on it's own merit.

And trust me, if I could i'd drag Assange kicking and screaming from that embassy and frogmarch him to Sweden myself. :p
 
No I want you to back up your assertion that there is less of an evidence base in neuropsychiatry that is guiding current practice.

Because it's self evident when you are dealing with something that is intangible that there will be less conclusive understanding than another area of medicine where everything is physical.

Again, there are lots of areas of psychiatry that are backed up well by science. I understand how brain scans can be used to determine emotions in animals for example, I know there is physical evidence in many areas of study.

But ultimately the bits that aren't physical and can't be traced by studying something tangible can only by definition come down to opinion, and this is something that just doesn't exist in other fields of medicine.

I am not saying you are saying it is rubbish. I am saying the assertion there is less of a evidence base is rubbish. Suicide and depression are two of the most researched things: historically and currently.

Amount of research <> amount of evidence.

You talk about the meta-physical and therefore fall straight into what I was posting to Castiel about. The kind of person who thinks it's all about Freud and some mind/body duality. If you actually understood what was being discussed then you would not be making statements like that.

Again you keep trying to make this an all or nothing debate, I've never said the whole field of psychiatry is "all about" Frued an mind/body duality. I've said that many areas of the field are well backed up by scientific evidence.

But when we're analysing whether someone is likely to kills themselves or not physical evidence goes out the window and you are left only with one person's assessment based on nothing more than historical data.

Further on again you make another mistake. You are saying they are judging on this: X amount of people have threatened to commit suicide before if Y was to occur, Z amount of people carried out that threat?

That was not what they have looked at all. What they have looked at is the % of suicides in people with varying criteria.

Which is what I essentially said? They look at people with X (varying criteria) and see historically how many of them committing suicide then apply this as a figure onto the individual (Now obviously the whole process is a little longer and convoluted than that but that's what it is essentially).

The point is they are basing it on the experiences and actions of other people, which again is very logical and correct most of the time but it isn't infallible and certainly isn't enough to shout another poster down for disagreeing with that conclusion.

You could say you were going to commit suicide and they would take into context not only the threat but the underlying physiology/pathology. Not that you'd accept that as you seem to think they are looking at some intangible and unmeasurable entity ...

Well they are aren't they? Show me a ruler than can measure anger, or a thermometer than can measure depression, you can't because those two things don't physically exist, you can only measure them on a man-made scale based on historical data of other people who claimed to be in the same position.

I would like you to back up that assertion and say what part of the scientific framework is not being used in neuropsychiatry to give it less of an evidence base. Where exactly is the deficit occurring. And do you actually really believe the study of the mind is the meta-physical - how quaint!

And you believe you accurately read minds which is just asinine.
 
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Because it's self evident when you are dealing with something that is intangible that there will be less conclusive understanding than another area of medicine where everything is physical.

Mental health is not intangible. You really are quite the positivist if you think that We'd be pretty screwed if we just left our observations to the directly observable ... you'd never get pain relief for a start.

Again, there are lots of areas of psychiatry that are backed up well by science. I understand how brain scans can be used to determine emotions in animals for example, I know there is physical evidence in many areas of study.

And are specifically up to date in this particular area because if you are I am sure we can have a nice chat about orbitofrontal and amygdala underactivity because I don't have many people to talk to about it ...

But ultimately the bits that aren't physical and can't be traced by studying something tangible can only by definition come down to opinion, and this is something that just doesn't exist in other fields of medicine.

Except they are physical and you protestations to the otherwise just makes you look rather daft.


Again you keep trying to make this an all or nothing debate, I've never said the whole field of psychiatry is "all about" Frued an mind/body duality. I've said that many areas of the field are well backed up by scientific evidence.

Yes, and strangely enough this is one of them.

But when we're analysing whether someone is likely to kills themselves or not physical evidence goes out the window and you are left only with one person's assessment based on nothing more than historical data.

No we are not. We are left with a known list of diagnostic criteria that are met to categorise the person into the relevant group. We then plug that group into the overall suicide rates and come out with a broad assessment of risk. This is exactly what they did.

Which is what I essentially said? They look at people with X (varying criteria) and see historically how many of them committing suicide then apply this as a figure onto the individual (Now obviously the whole process is a little longer and convoluted than that but that's what it is essentially).

That's not what you said though is it - you said this: "X amount of people have threatened to commit suicide before if Y was to occur, Z amount of people carried out that threat?"

Which is of course a very different thing.

The point is they are basing it on the experiences and actions of other people, which again is very logical and correct most of the time but it isn't infallible and certainly isn't enough to shout another poster down for disagreeing with that conclusion.

If that post had challenged the position with a degree of evidence or actual thought then maybe not when they dismiss leading authorities in an area they, like you, clearly do not understand all because they have a 'gut instinct' then yes I will repeatedly challenge them.

Well they are aren't they? Show me a ruler than can measure anger, or a thermometer than can measure depression, you can't because those two things don't physically exist, you can only measure them on a man-made scale based on historical data of other people who claimed to be in the same position.

Well a ruler is an implement for measuring length ...
A thermometer is an implement for measuring temperature ...

Show me an implement that can measure renal failure ... you can't but you could show me creatinine and urea levels along with a GFR that would indicate it and from that we could form a conclusion.

Show me an implement that can measure epilepsy ... you can't but you could perform a sleep study with video EEG and nursing observations and from that you could form a conclusion.

Show me an implement that can measure depression ... you can't but you can perform biochemistry, run a fMRI and gain nursing observations and from that form a conclusion.

And you believe you accurately read minds which is just asinine.

No one is saying they can in this case:confused:
 
No one is saying they can in this case:confused:

Well yes you are by keep disagreeing with me.

My only issue here is that I don't think it's wrong or stupid to disagree with an expert who concluded Gary McKinnon would kill himself if deported.

Now unless you believe that psychiatrists can directly read minds or see the future then this conclusion can never be anything more than educated conjecture which may be backed up by good historical data and it may be the best prediction we have but you simply cannot prove that McKinnon's threat isn't an empty one without being able to read minds.

Tute's "gut instinct" was over Gary Mckinnon's claim that he'd commit suicide. You simply cannot claim you can prove he wasn't just saying it as an excuse unless you perfect polygraphs which we know don't work.

People's future intentions simply cannot be measured by any machine or test on earth. Why you keep wanting to take this undeniable fact as an insult to the entire Psychiatric industry I don't know.
 
Well yes you are by keep disagreeing with me.

No I am disagreeing with you because every point you have made has been faulty.

To say that Gary himself would know is also incorrect he can not know for certain whether he would commit suicide he can only tell you how he feels about it.

My only issue here is that I don't think it's wrong or stupid to disagree with an expert who concluded Gary McKinnon would kill himself if deported.

Well that's your opinion. When those people have:

Direct access to Gary.
Direct access to all the tests.
Been specifically asked as they are acknowledged experts in the field.
Been specifically asked as they are impartial experts.

And they then come to a broad conclusion that on the balance of probabilities there is a risk associated, at the more severe end of the scale, of him committing suicide.

To disagree with that just smacks of ignorance and stupidity.

Now unless you believe that psychiatrists can directly read minds or see the future then this conclusion can never be anything more than educated conjecture which may be backed up by good historical data and it may be the best prediction we have but you simply cannot prove that McKinnon's threat isn't an empty one without being able to read minds.

Well with the level of proof you are requiring we may as well close every single hospital ... what are you going to do if offered a treatment modality - refuse it if you are not guaranteed a 100% success rate?

Tute's "gut instinct" was over Gary Mckinnon's claim that he'd commit suicide. You simply cannot claim you can prove he wasn't just saying it as an excuse unless you perfect polygraphs which we know don't work.

Which again makes the mistake of thinking gary would know with absolute certainty.

Tute's gut instinct against the listed above looks stupid, is stupid and I called it out for being stupid. It had not thought or logic behind it even when challenged. It's like some creationist bashing against evolution despite all the evidence to the contrary. Tute wasn't even aware what the 'risk of suicide' meant as he took it to mean will with all certainty commit suicide - which is something no-one has said. When all the experts have highlighted a severe risk to then say there is none whatsoever because of gut instinct is daft.

People's future intentions simply cannot be measured by any machine or test on earth. Why you keep wanting to take this undeniable fact as an insult to the entire Psychiatric industry I don't know.

I am not saying they are which is why the decision was not a black and white one but on the balance of probabilities ...

I don't feel the psychiatric industry is being insulted and never took it as that. It matters not to me anyway. However, I took you as lacking understanding in the area, wholly unaware of the science behind it all, and stuck with some 50 year old preconceptions that you seem to still think are relevant today. Do you go in General Hardware and spec people valves and switches?
 
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