60hz 120Hz and FPS in gaming

Beren

Beren

Beren

Soldato
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Just trying to wrap my head around a random thought.

Am I right in thinking that all monitors used to be 60hz and we now have 120Hz monitors.
Which means that monitors can refresh now at an absolute maximum of 120 times a second.
So if a graphics card can output a game at more than 120 fps how is it possible for anyone to perceive it as the display device cannot physically change more than 120 times?

This isn't getting into my reasoning that once you are over around 40fps you are probably in placebo effect territory with how good a game looks as the eye can't tell - but I have not had the privilege to game with really high spec machines so I could just be being bitter :p
 
Beren said:
Just trying to wrap my head around a random thought.

Am I right in thinking that all monitors used to be 60hz and we now have 120Hz monitors.
Which means that monitors can refresh now at an absolute maximum of 120 times a second.
So if a graphics card can output a game at more than 120 fps how is it possible for anyone to perceive it as the display device cannot physically change more than 120 times?

This isn't getting into my reasoning that once you are over around 40fps you are probably in placebo effect territory with how good a game looks as the eye can't tell - but I have not had the privilege to game with really high spec machines so I could just be being bitter :p
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The eye can easily, easily tell the difference between 40 FPS and 60 FPS. Beyond that the law of diminishing returns starts to bite but the difference is still visible at 120 FPS. You underestimate our eyes!

You are correct in saying that over 120 FPS can be shown. But remember just because your maximum or average FPS is over 120 doesn't necessarily mean your minimum FPS is that high. Some people "game at 60 FPS" when their averages and minimums are significantly lower- particularly when drivers are poor.
 
And it's not all based on vision either. You can feel the difference, it's hard to describe :-) Especially in twitchy shooters.
 
Beren said:
Just trying to wrap my head around a random thought.

Am I right in thinking that all monitors used to be 60hz and we now have 120Hz monitors.
Which means that monitors can refresh now at an absolute maximum of 120 times a second.
So if a graphics card can output a game at more than 120 fps how is it possible for anyone to perceive it as the display device cannot physically change more than 120 times?

This isn't getting into my reasoning that once you are over around 40fps you are probably in placebo effect territory with how good a game looks as the eye can't tell - but I have not had the privilege to game with really high spec machines so I could just be being bitter :p
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CRT monitors were able to do up to 100hz at least (think that was the max on mine back in the day), so no they haven't always been 60hz. Only since LCD took over have we been stuck at 60hz (which in older games like Quake was immediately noticeable and quite annoying).

Have a 120hz monitor now, definitely not going back :)
 
lemon2 said:
The eye can easily, easily tell the difference between 40 FPS and 60 FPS. Beyond that the law of diminishing returns starts to bite but the difference is still visible at 120 FPS. You underestimate our eyes!
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I would disagree, most people cannot see a difference between 30fps and 60fps.

If you're interacting with the display onscreen though that is a different matter. You can much more easily "feel" the difference between 30 & 40, 40 & 60. Seeing without interacting is another matter altogether, you would consider 25 fps to be abysmal in a game but almost everyone watches tv and movies 25fps or less.
 
Skyfall said:
I would disagree, most people cannot see a difference between 30fps and 60fps.

If you're interacting with the display onscreen though that is a different matter. You can much more easily "feel" the difference between 30 & 40, 40 & 60. Seeing without interacting is another matter altogether, you would consider 25 fps to be abysmal in a game but almost everyone watches tv and movies 25fps or less.
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i'm not sure about that, certainly anyone I've shown such differences to, more 25 vs 50 fps, can clearly see the difference, people usually find it quite jarring at first but get used to it, I prefer the higher frame rate personally. You just have to look at the test audience reactions to the hobbit being filmed in 48fps vs 24 to see that people do notice the difference.

I also have a 120hz screens and the difference really is quite big.
 
Skyfall said:
I would disagree, most people cannot see a difference between 30fps and 60fps.

If you're interacting with the display onscreen though that is a different matter. You can much more easily "feel" the difference between 30 & 40, 40 & 60. Seeing without interacting is another matter altogether, you would consider 25 fps to be abysmal in a game but almost everyone watches tv and movies 25fps or less.
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I can see it too. I've seen game footage on Youtube which I could just tell was 30FPS and then I read the description and it verifies it for me. Which is weird because I've also read that Youtube downscales everything to 30FPS anyway!
 
I have had a 120hz for quite a while and was begining to wonder what all the fuss was untill i started playing doom 3 bfg edition at 120hz and i can now understand what people mean when they say gaming at 120 is so much smoother
 
120Hz in gaming is worth it, massively.

Night and day difference to a 60Hz panel, not just smoothness but input lag (or lack thereof) is hugely noticeable.

Sounds like bull but my K : D in FPS games instantly improved shifting to 120Hz.
 
No placebo even testing 60 vs 120. I had people tell me whether it was 60 or 120 when I moved some windows around and they guessed it right everytime. They can even tell how smoother it has gone just by looking at the cursor move. So noticing above 60 is is very possible.
 
Skyfall said:
I would disagree, most people cannot see a difference between 30fps and 60fps.

If you're interacting with the display onscreen though that is a different matter. You can much more easily "feel" the difference between 30 & 40, 40 & 60. Seeing without interacting is another matter altogether, you would consider 25 fps to be abysmal in a game but almost everyone watches tv and movies 25fps or less.
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Have to say I strongly disagree here. I noticed a huge difference even between 80fps and 120fps and so did the 2 lads who tested it with me. After playing games at 120hz when a camera pans in a show or film I feel sick with the amount of blur and general not-smoothness. Even going back to consoles where lots of games dip into the 30's it just feels like crap.

Leeroy123 said:
The difference between 60 and 120 hertz is massive, anyone who says otherwise, either has a 60 hertz monitor, or has poor sight.
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+1
 
Skyfall said:
I would disagree, most people cannot see a difference between 30fps and 60fps.

If you're interacting with the display onscreen though that is a different matter. You can much more easily "feel" the difference between 30 & 40, 40 & 60. Seeing without interacting is another matter altogether, you would consider 25 fps to be abysmal in a game but almost everyone watches tv and movies 25fps or less.
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Long story short film and tv have motion blur which reduces the effect of poor frame rate.24 fps in film is a whole lot better than 24 fps in gaming.
 
I dislike all this night and day rubbish, yes there is a difference but it will be different for everyone, if u go from some cheap old monitor to a dedicated gaming 120hz then yes, you would be impressed. If you have something decent already, then to be honest it's a bit of a waste of cash
 
llamadal said:
I dislike all this night and day rubbish, yes there is a difference but it will be different for everyone, if u go from some cheap old monitor to a dedicated gaming 120hz then yes, you would be impressed. If you have something decent already, then to be honest it's a bit of a waste of cash
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Depends why they are upgrading. Its not a waste going from an amazing IPS to 120hz if you play FPS a lot.
 
If you have money to burn, then sure why not, hell have 2, one for fps and a second for general use.

I've used a few 120 hz from about a year ago, not sure on current models and settled on the benq as it was decent for allround, but would I have thrown the money down if my old one wasn't dodgy? No probably not, as while it was an upgrade, it wasn't an omg this is so much better type of moment.
 
metro 2033 is whats conived me 120hz is better, i get zero motion sickness on a couple of screens i have demoed just waiting on someone to release a 30" 120hz screen now
 
120hz made a difference to me
-£300 difference to my bank account

However it's nice to see my fraps counter showing 80fps in the corner when playing F1 2012. Rarely does it ever get up to 120 but I suppose that's where x-fire would help.
 
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