Religion in the news again...

[Castiel]

There's been some fairly dodgy journalism around this case due to the obvious bias on either side but I think I'm right in saying there's no actual law in place as of yet?

Also, not sure if anyone has even been arguing that it wasn't the state's decision but that doesn't completely absolve the church of responsibility.

There is no legislation as yet, which is what I said...the Constitution allows for legal abortion in certain circumstances due to the equal right to life of the Mother, but successive administrations have failed to enact the legislation to put those Constitutional Rights onto the Statute.

The responsibility ultimately lies with the People and Government of Ireland, as they have either voted in or denied several referendums on rights associated with abortion in Ireland. The Catholic Church has its opinion, just as other Churches have a different one, but ultimately this is an issue for the Government and the various referendums that have been voted on.

 

[boxman2000]

Probably one example in 100,000 cases where a legitimate abortion (not to be read as legal) would have been justified on medical grounds.

Very emotive subject and I don't think enough information is given pre-abortion as to the mental and physical effects. My wife worked in a GP surgery for years and used to see a lot of women coming in after abortions with depression, end of term pregnancy related issues and troubles conceiving to name only a few.

 

[Clav]

The only people to blame here are the politicians (of every political party) who have failed repeatedly to clearly legislate the matter.

 

[fluffmct]

There is no legislation as yet, which is what I said...the Constitution allows for legal abortion in certain circumstances due to the equal right to life of the Mother, but successive administrations have failed to enact the legislation to put those Constitutional Rights onto the Statute.

The responsibility ultimately lies with the People and Government of Ireland, as they have either voted in or denied several referendums on rights associated with abortion in Ireland. The Catholic Church has its opinion, just as other Churches have a different one, but ultimately this is an issue for the Government and the various referendums that have been voted on.

Ah I misread your earlier post.

I think it's fairly safe to say the government doesn't represent the people on this, based on the mass exodus from the RCC in the last couple of years. Saying the church just has its opinion is ignoring the fact that the government and a lot of people have their stance on abortion based on what the church preaches in schools and chapels every week and has done for centuries.

 

[minister]

Medical Intervention Abortions are not illegal in the Republic of Ireland, this is more to do with the Hospitals negligence and the Government's inaction in changing the legislation than whatever a religion has to say.......also it needs to be pointed out that the Irish people have voted to keep their abortion laws on more than one occassion and they also support legal abortion in the case where a woman's life is in danger.

In any case this is a tragedy that could have been avoided and let's hope the people who made the decisions that led to this woman's death are held to account, and hopefully this will galvanise the Irish Government to sort out the legislation so it better reflects the Irish Constitution.

They come to the UK for abortions.

 

[minister]

Medical Intervention Abortions are not illegal in the Republic of Ireland, this is more to do with the Hospitals negligence and the Government's inaction in changing the legislation than whatever a religion has to say.......also it needs to be pointed out that the Irish people have voted to keep their abortion laws on more than one occassion and they also support legal abortion in the case where a woman's life is in danger.

In any case this is a tragedy that could have been avoided and let's hope the people who made the decisions that led to this woman's death are held to account, and hopefully this will galvanise the Irish Government to sort out the legislation so it better reflects the Irish Constitution.

They come to the UK for abortions. Rather than worry about this, you should be worried about the next recession coming next quarter.

 

[Rainmaker]

Abortion is illegal in Ireland? No wonder they ran out of potatoes!


/GD



Dark humour aside I don't think it's that clear cut. It's a shame this lady lost her life in the shambles, however, and it would appear to be high time the government pulled their socks up and solidified proper legislation.

 

[Castiel]

Ah I misread your earlier post.

I think it's fairly safe to say the government doesn't represent the people on this, based on the mass exodus from the RCC in the last couple of years. Saying the church just has its opinion is ignoring the fact that the government and a lot of people have their stance on abortion based on what the church preaches in schools and chapels every week and has done for centuries.

The referendums however do represent the people, and the point is that constitutionally the Church has no say in what the Government do, the fact is that the blame lies firmly with the politicians and health professionals in this case. One for not clarifying the constitutional right of the Woman, and the other for using poor judgement in assessing the rights of an unviable foetus over that of the life of the Woman.

As for representation, I think you will find that the Governments reluctance to clarify the matter is exactly because they represent the feeling of the majority of people..as successive referendums have shown.

 

[shoes]

Expected news and OP linked The Sun...
blaahh

To be fair this was discussed in detail on Radio 4 yesterday.

 

[Castiel]

They come to the UK for abortions.

They come to the UK for abortions. Rather than worry about this, you should be worried about the next recession coming next quarter.

So what if they travel to the UK and elsewhere for abortions, what has tat got to do with anything.

Also, why should I worry about some paper recession that may or may not come in the next quarter, and what has that got to do with anything?

 

[fluffmct]

The referendums however do represent the people, and the point is that constitutionally the Church has no say in what the Government do, the fact is that the blame lies firmly with the politicians and health professionals in this case. One for not clarifying the constitutional right of the Woman, and the other for using poor judgement in assessing the rights of an unviable foetus over that of the life of the Woman.

As for representation, I think you will find that the Governments reluctance to clarify the matter is exactly because they represent the feeling of the majority of people..as successive referendums have shown.

Successive referendums done before the mass exodus I was talking about (I'm disappointed no one is picking up on the pun here )

You're arguing with me on points I'm not making I haven't denied that the state is responsible. My point was that the church isn't absolved of responsibility. It's not a matter of 100% blame here, there or anywhere.

 

[Castiel]

Successive referendums done before the mass exodus I was talking about (I'm disappointed no one is picking up on the pun here )

A 'mass exodus' that has been going on since the late 1980's and Church Attendence in ROI is in fact pretty stable (rising slightly) in recent years due to immigration from other Catholic majority countries such as Poland....so the referendums were conducted during this time, not after. There is also a big difference between weekly Mass Attendance and the fact that the ROI is still overwhelmingly Catholic.

SYou're arguing with me on points I'm not making I haven't denied that the state is responsible. My point was that the church isn't absolved of responsibility. It's not a matter of 100% blame here, there or anywhere.

I am pointing out that the case under discussion has nothing to do with any decisions the Catholic Church has made, and everything to do with the decisions made primarily by the Hospital and indirectly by the Politicians who have failed to enact legislation that reflects the Irish Constitution. Assigning blame toward a religion only detracts from the very real mistakes and poor decisions that the authorities have made toward the welfare of this woman and their responsibility for it.

 

[fluffmct]

Well let's hope a referendum comes about and we'll drag this thread up again

Not sure how you can say that this case has nothing to do with any decision the RCC has made when it clearly stems from Catholic dogma. To take it as so black and white just seems absurd to me

 

[Castiel]

Well let's hope a referendum comes about and we'll drag this thread up again

Not sure how you can say that this case has nothing to do with any decision the RCC has made when it clearly stems from Catholic dogma. To take it as so black and white just seems absurd to me

There are plenty of secular and other religions involved in pro-life and antiabortionist movements and the Catholic Churches teachings relating to abortions do not condemn or prohibit the loss of an unborn, unviable foetus in order to preserve the life of the Mother, that would contradict the very core belief that opposes abortion in the first place.

In this case the foetus was unviable and the decisions taken were made by the Hospital Authorities, who hold the primary responsibilty, their decision could have been made far easier if the statutes were in place to clarify the Irish Constitutional position, therefore the Government also have a degree of responsibilty. If a Catholic Priest had been involved in the Hospital's decision in an official capacity then they woud also be partially responsible...but they were not, and nothing in Catholic Doctrine prohibits the saving of a woman's life over that of an unviable foetus.

 

[arc@css]

I quite like the idea of Sky Faeries though. What religion has them?

Spiritual.

 

[fluffmct]

There are plenty of secular and other religions involved in pro-life and antiabortionist movements and the Catholic Churches teachings relating to abortions do not condemn or prohibit the loss of an unborn, unviable foetus in order to preserve the life of the Mother, that would contradict the very core belief that opposes abortion in the first place.

In this case the foetus was unviable and the decisions taken were made by the Hospital Authorities, who hold the primary responsibilty, their decision could have been made far easier if the statutes were in place to clarify the Irish Constitutional position, therefore the Government also have a degree of responsibilty. If a Catholic Priest had been involved in the Hospital's decision in an official capacity then they woud also be partially responsible...but they were not, and nothing in Catholic Doctrine prohibits the saving of a woman's life over that of an unviable foetus.

I'm aware that it's not just the Catholic church involved in pro-life campaigning but I don't think that's relevant.

I'm also going to disagree with your point about Catholic dogma, although you'll no doubt Google it and find examples to the contrary . Catholics in general may think that saving the life of the mother is an acceptable circumstance, and I think almost all I know do, but the Catholic church's official stance doesn't agree with that and I'm sure I've read that RCC authorities have controversially claimed that it is unacceptable in any circumstance.

 

[Morbius]

Catholicism has some bad practices, but ultimately it wasn't the religion that was responsible for this. I don't believe that there's anything dogmatic regarding abortion. Responsibility has to lie with the staff who made the decision. They were clearly not acting in the best interests of the patient. My personal opinion is that there must be something fundamentally wrong with them if they could stand back and watch a woman die from something they could have attempted to treat. I would throw the book at them.

 

[fluffmct]

Catholicism has some bad practices, but ultimately it wasn't the religion that was responsible for this. I don't believe that there's anything dogmatic regarding abortion. Responsibility has to lie with the staff who made the decision. They were clearly not acting in the best interests of the patient. My personal opinion is that there must be something fundamentally wrong with them if they could stand back and watch a woman die from something they could have attempted to treat. I would throw the book at them.

Assuming you're replying to me, that's not what I am arguing against. I'm saying that the Catholic church is not free from responsibility here, at some level, be it morally or culturally; not necessarily talking about immediate legal responsibility

 

[Morbius]

Assuming you're replying to me, that's not what I am arguing against. I'm saying that the Catholic church is not free from responsibility here, at some level, be it morally or culturally; not necessarily talking about immediate legal responsibility

No, I was just stating my view of the story in general.

 

[Castiel]

I'm aware that it's not just the Catholic church involved in pro-life campaigning but I don't think that's relevant.

I'm also going to disagree with your point about Catholic dogma, although you'll no doubt Google it and find examples to the contrary . Catholics in general may think that saving the life of the mother is an acceptable circumstance, and I think almost all I know do, but the Catholic church's official stance doesn't agree with that and I'm sure I've read that RCC authorities have controversially claimed that it is unacceptable in any circumstance.

I don't need to use google to talk about religion, particularly Christianity.

Anyway the problem with the basis of your disagreement is that is ignores the way that the Catholic Church defines abortion...it must be the direct and intentional termination of a viable pregnancy. It in no way puts the life of the foetus above that of the mother or vice versa and it certainly doesn't support the actions of the Hospital in refusing to induce an unviable foetus in order to save the mother (or even both if that was possible).