Self defence - what rights do you have if .....

[Twirlywoos]

scorza has had it explained multiple times that it's highly unlikely an individual would be prosecuted for self-defence and in the cases where they are that they've gone so far beyond what might be considered reasonable that they and reasonable are no longer within hailing distance of each other. However scorza appears to want that the police should take a quick look at the crime scene and make a snap decision prima facie that the evidence means the homeowner shouldn't be arrested while the incident is investigated.

It's unfortunate that the homeowner sometimes has to be arrested while the investigation takes place but it protects their rights as well as helping to ensure that the investigation can proceed properly.

//edit and while the phrasing "reasonable force" may appear to be vague (and indeed is deliberately so) that doesn't imply there is not mountains of case law to help interpret it in a fair and consistent way. Mistakes will occasionally be made, of that I have no doubt, but that is the price of having humans involved in the system as we're not perfect.

I was never arrested when armed burglars entered our home. My only regret is that I should have killed them instead of using reasonable force, but at least they are being sentenced in December and that should be a nice Chrimbo present for them and their family.

 

[Pestilence]

I was never arrested when armed burglars entered our home. My only regret is that I should have killed them instead of using reasonable force, but at least they are being sentenced in December and that should be a nice Chrimbo present for them and their family.

Yeah, it will... when they get suspended sentences and head straight out to burn your house down.

 

[Twirlywoos]

Yeah, it will... when they get suspended sentences and head straight out to burn your house down.

lol they won't

 

[Pestilence]

lol they won't

 

[kwerk]

What if the only thing you have on hand is a shotgun, then reasonable force is pretty much limited to lethal force. But if shotguns are allowed as reasonable force, then why cant you put 'self-defense' down on a shotgun certificate application and be able to buy slug shells?

it's sort of like you can use reasonable self-defense, but not "pre-meditated" reasonable self-defense

eta: to me reasonable force is shooting an intruder, because you have no idea what they are armed with or what their intent is. If you don't want to risk getting shot then dont break into other people's houses.

 

[Mat]

Go for the kneecaps!

 

[No1newts]

My bike and sisters were stolen from our shed since then it's not the same. Even my other sister is scared, worried and I think this would play on her mind

Someone stole your sisters?!??

My bike and sisters were stolen from our shed

Perhaps let them in the house and not leave them in the shed?

Even my other sister is scared, worried and I think this would play on her mind

Seriously get her out the shed, she'll feel a lot safer!

 

[King Damager]

If they're aggressive to you, use reasonable force.

If they're coming at you with a knife, feel free to grab a baseball bat.
If they're coming at you with fists, feel free to grab a baseball bat. Though I wouldn't hit them in this case, just threaten to, and if they're still stupid enough to come at you, then I probably would.

If they're running away. Let them. Don't chase them. It's the one basic rule really in my eyes.

Also, always aim to injure, not to kill. E.g. If you have a baseball bat, aim for legs/arms rather than head...


kd

 

[Will21st]

What if the only thing you have on hand is a shotgun, then reasonable force is pretty much limited to lethal force. But if shotguns are allowed as reasonable force, then why cant you put 'self-defense' down on a shotgun certificate application and be able to buy slug shells?

it's sort of like you can use reasonable self-defense, but not "pre-meditated" reasonable self-defense

eta: to me reasonable force is shooting an intruder, because you have no idea what they are armed with or what their intent is. If you don't want to risk getting shot then dont break into other people's houses.

If you can convince the jury that you were afraid for your and/or your families life than yes,you can use a shotgun,even on an unarmed Intruder.It's about your perception of the threat in the moment.
In most European countries self-defence doesn't fly as a reason for gun-ownrship,it's just a different culture.

 

[Edrof]

Someone stole your sisters?!??

I actually guffawed at this, thank you.

 

[scorza]

If you can convince the jury that you were afraid for your and/or your families life than yes,you can use a shotgun,even on an unarmed Intruder.It's about your perception of the threat in the moment.
In most European countries self-defence doesn't fly as a reason for gun-ownrship,it's just a different culture.

Why should you have to convince a jury? Surely it's up to the prosecution to convince the jury that you used unreasonable force i.e. have some evidence of that before prosecuting.

 

[Sin_Chase]

People make this more complicated than it needs to be.

Reasonableness is pretty straightforward.

Chasing someone is not reasonable.
Kicking them in when they are on the floor is not reasonable.

Shoving them out the door when they are unarmed is reasonable.
Using martial arts to kick them if they are persistent and coming at you with a bat or otherwise is reasonable.

How many people own guns legally, in their home? A very small percentage. When does shooting someone become reasonable? Being in direct and immediate fear of being attacked and, at worst, fearing for your life. You cannot fear for someone who is not present "Give me the cash or I'll shoot your wife" (Whom is upstairs and out of sight at the time) is not reasonable excuse to shoot someone there and then. No matter how gun-ho many of you feel on this subject defending a threat against your family by shooting someone just in case is not a reasonable reaction. Not in the courts.

Act reasonably and not vindictively and you won't have a problem.

 

[Mucky_Pup]

Someone being in your house uninvited and you feel your life or wellbeing or that of your family is being threatened, is grounds enough to shoot them if you're holding a gun IMO.

 

[hurfdurf]

I'll stand and bang with anyone, and if a complaint is made I will simply say the person repeatedly told me they were going to kill me so I felt my life was in daneger during the beating.

I woulnd't tell the police this, I would tell my lawyer, I would never talk to the police because they are scum and will want to imprison me for their own statistics rather than actual justice.

 

[scorza]

People make this more complicated than it needs to be.

Reasonableness is pretty straightforward.

Chasing someone is not reasonable.
Kicking them in when they are on the floor is not reasonable.

Shoving them out the door when they are unarmed is reasonable.
Using martial arts to kick them if they are persistent and coming at you with a bat or otherwise is reasonable.

A good example why the law is not fit for purpose, all those examples sound pretty reasonable to me. I certainly wouldn't condemn someone, or someone's neighbour who chased someone breaking into their home and gave them a few slaps. It's all very well coming up with what you think are black and white examples and examine them in a clear and non-emotional environment but the fact is that being burgled is an extremely stressful situation and I don't think anyone knows how they would react unless they've been in that situation.

Act reasonably and not vindictively and you won't have a problem.

The law in question does not mention the word vindictively at all.

 

[~>Dg<~]

maybe we should sticky threads that contain

zombie apocalypse
reasonable force
food out of date
ex girlfriends

me personally would injure whoever shouldnt be in my house very badly. im not ashamed to say this. dont venture into places where your not welcome or allowed

 

[-BA-]

I think I actually smell burning when I try to read threads from this OP. His posts make my brain hurt. Wait, what? Is that baby Jesus I hear crying? "No baby Jesus, it's not your fault. There are really people like this..."

 

[Nitefly]

Act reasonably and not vindictively and you won't have a problem.

That's a pretty excellent summary.

 

[[FnG]magnolia]

hurfdurf, Tony Williams and kwerk all in one thread.

It's the triumvirate of amazingness. We're through the looking glass now, folks

 

[Saytan]

Part of how I understand self defence hinges pretty heavily on premeditation.

i.e. - woken in the night, clobber burglar with heavy lamp from bedside table, probably OK

woken in the night, go to kitchen, get rolling pin, clobber burglar with it, not OK.

going to get the weapon constitutes an element of premeditation