Woman saves fox from hounds

The point is that there is no impartial evidence, the closest thing to it was the Burns Enquiry which made the distinction that hunting with hounds was not cruel but did seriously compromise the welfare of the fox..(the latter being pretty self-evident).

So you haven't got the impartial evidence to demonstrate your point.

Let's take that report then at face value and make the a priori assumption fox hunting is NOT cruel. Could we then not further our examination?

So let me ask you a simple question which I am sure you can answer:

"Are their ways which do not compromise the foxes welfare to such an extent?"

There has been no referendum to determine the actual consensus, so again that is subjective.

There has been no referendum for lots of things. Because it's quite simple to gauge the feeling of a population without that mechanic.

Are you seriously suggesting you would expect a referendum to come in favour of fox-hunting.

Also there is a social and cultural persepective to consider, which is dependent on the actual communities in which they exist not on those that have no connection to them.

Again there is a connection and also individual communities can not decide what they do and do want to adopt. If they don't like it then tough move to somewhere more friendly to this kind of behaviour.

The argument about national image and the international stage is just poppycock....fox hunting with hounds is legal in some parts of the UK so that undermines that line of justification.

I don't think the vast majority of the world necessarily sees what goes on in Northern Ireland as representative of what occurs in the UK. I would wager their depictions of the UK are very England and Scotland centric.
 
In my eyes fox hunters are no worse than poachers and religious extremists. People who do things for their personal gain, with no respect towards animal welfare or other views. The whole lot of you should be lined up and shot!

Umm... yeah... kind of contradicting yourself there... asking people to show respect and then saying that.

What gives anyone the right to call such creatures pests, vermin etc? Are the decreasing population of English Adders pests too?

The women is an inspiration and a hero!

By definition... that is what they are...




p.s. I don't know where I stand on it as I know very little about it so can't make an informed opinion.
 
Actually I have made no such assumptions, I have said that where policy issues are limited to certain communities then those communities should be making the decisions that affect them directly. I grew up in a urban environment so that kind of accusation is simply not justified.

No, they should not be making the decisions that affect them directly. They should be approached as stakeholders in those decisions no more no less.

You are talking about a majority consensus against fox hunting based on the perceived cruelty involved, yet are now trying to justify what would presumably be at least some members that same majority leaving a fox to die on the side of the road when they hit it with their car without a second thought (except how it might affect their NCD if there is any damage)

Show me exactly where I justified it. I said I would concede it would be ironical if you could substantiate your claim.

The whole point I am making is that the perceive barbarity is entirely subjective and it is more likely to be though of as such by those with little or no contact or experience of the practice than those who do.

Well of course. Most people think torture is barbaric too and it is legislated as being so. Strangely enough people have little contact of experience with that too and yet they are probably quite justified in their opinion that it too is wrong.

Personally I am not bothered whether the hunt uses dogs or not, I am just concerned with people not being able to make decisions within their own communities about issues that directly affect their communities simply because they are outnumbered by those who are not directly affected by the policies they are making.

The Govt promised localism, lets see it.

So you are happy then if Walsall and Bradford et al implement Sharia law for their communities? The same logical thought process can be applied.
 
Personally I am not bothered whether the hunt uses dogs or not, I am just concerned with people not being able to make decisions within their own communities about issues that directly affect their communities simply because they are outnumbered by those who are not directly affected by the policies they are making.

The Govt promised localism, lets see it.
So if the results of a local referendum in the country-side still resulted in a vote to keep the ban what then?.

As all studies indicate that most of the population (regardless of region) are against fox hunting, the consensus amongst farmers is that shooting is more humane, more effective & ethically preferable to hunting with dogs (according to the studies I linked earlier).
 
Assumption.

Isn't done for entertainment purposes.

Isn't done for entertainment purposes.

Isn't done for entertainment purposes.

The purpose of the event is not the intentional death of animals for amusement.

Isn't done for entertainment purposes.

Attempting to justify hunting with dogs (which isn't the most efficient form of pest control) by comparing the act to a number of other instances in which animals are killed (either intentionally for food, or un-intentionally) isn't logical.

Regarding your point on allowing rural communities to have a law unto themselves - I respectfully disagree, but ignoring that - most of the rural population are also against fox-hunting with dogs (to a lesser degree compared to city dwellers I admit, but they are still in the majority for all voter groups & dwelling types).

Just because a social convention has grown around a practical solution to a problem doesn't negate the comparative morality with other practices which court controversy, particularly animal testing and horse racing for example as they have similar arguments regarding animal welfare issues.

The point wasn't about allowing rural communities to be a law unto themselves either, that is a gross misrepresentation of what I said...I said the communities (any community) should ultimately be able to determine for themselves which policies they legislate on where the issue is limited to that community....there are obvious exceptions such as where those policies would affect human rights or break equality and other laws (before you try equating it with sharia law in Bradford) fox hunting is something that should be a matter for the local communities (by bylaw) rather than being legislated nationally. It isn't even banned in the entire UK anyway.
 
They looked at 160 sites around the UK in 2002, 2000 and 1999. Fox numbers were estimated by counting droppings.

There was a small, although statistically insignificant, decline in fox numbers this year.

"We conclude that there was no significant change in fox numbers during the one-year hunting ban, and that in most regions the average faecal density had declined," the Bristol team reports in the scientific journal Nature.

"Our results therefore support the view taken by the Committee of Inquiry into Hunting with Dogs that a permanent ban on hunting is unlikely to result in a dramatic increase in fox numbers."
 
Most of the hunts I ever went on the poxy fox got away anyway. And before anyone starts throwing accusations about, the hunts I participated in where perfectly legal and either involved only one or two dogs to flush out the fox to be shot, or used a pack in Scotland for the same outcome, although I never really liked the pack hunting, for me it was really about hunting with a rifle.

I understand some people disagree with all forms of hunting and they are entitled to their opinion.
I'm not opposed to hunting just unnecessary suffering to an animal. A bullet to the head is quite different to hounds tearing a fox to peaces slowly, which of course is completely unnecessary.

Bloody hell Castiel I've bee back tracking through this thread and reading your comments has completely murdered any respect I had for you. I genuinely thought you were one of the good guys. :(
 
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I'm not convinced that the argument that foxes need culling really holds much water but let's assume that it's true.

If the government decides to go ahead with the badger cull, I wonder whether we'll see multiple "hunters" out in bright red and gold uniforms on horseback with a small army of dogs chasing lone badgers, or will it just be farmers and hunters with guns?

It's pretty clear that the people who do it think of it as a sport, not a necessity. And as far as sports go, it's pretty sickening.

....there are obvious exceptions such as where those policies would affect human rights or break equality and other laws (before you try equating it with sharia law in Bradford) fox hunting is something that should be a matter for the local communities (by bylaw) rather than being legislated nationally. It isn't even banned in the entire UK anyway.

You mention human rights, what about animal rights?
 
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So if the results of a local referendum in the country-side still resulted in a vote to keep the ban what then?.

Then that entirely supports my argument. The local community have decided for themselves, like I said I am totally ambivalent about the actual hunting with hounds, I am on,y concern with people being dictated to by others simply because they are more numerous.

As all studies indicate that most of the population (regardless of region) are against fox hunting, the consensus amongst farmers is that shooting is more humane, more effective & ethically preferable to hunting with dogs (according to the studies I linked earlier).

Not all studies, The telegraph showed that the repeal of the hunting ban was widely supported since the ban had taken effect, in rural regions most effected by the ban.

Also the NFU and Farmers Weekly as well as many landowners have consistantly pushed the Govt to stand by the Conservatives manifesto pledge of a free parliamentary vote on the issue...something the Liberal Democrats have so far blocked.

If the consensus was so broad and so assured then have the vote, it shouldn't make any difference except to put this to bed.
 
I'm not convinced that the argument that foxes need culling really holds much water but let's assume that it's true.

It doesn't, all the scientific evidence strongly suggests that Fox hunting has an insignificant effect on fox numbers.

The results, reported in the Sept. 5 issue of Nature, contradict assertions by pro-hunting groups that fox numbers had soared during the hunting ban. The Farmers' Union of Wales, for example, had claimed that the ban had led to an ''explosion in the population to unprecedented levels'' and said some farmers had reported a huge increase in the number of attacks on sheep.

Dr. Harris has studied foxes and badgers in the Bristol area for about three decades, and in 1999 he began a long-term study of foxes throughout lowland Britain. He and his colleagues surveyed 160 one-kilometer-square plots in late winter of that year and at the same time in 2000. Then, in February 2001, with the countryside in the throes of the foot-and-mouth epidemic and many farms essentially locked down, the hunting ban was instituted.

When the ban was lifted at the end of 2001, Dr. Harris realized that he had an opportunity to gauge its effect. So in February and March of this year, he and his team surveyed the plots again.

Foxes are notoriously secretive, Dr. Harris said, which makes them difficult to count through sightings. Instead, he and his surveying teams used a system of counting fox feces. Since foxes tend to avoid open spaces, preferring to travel along hedgerows and other linear features in the landscape, finding feces was not difficult. And since the average fox produces a given amount of feces each day, ''it's a good way of counting fox numbers,'' Dr. Harris said.

Dr. Arthur Lindley, science director of the Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals, said Dr. Harris's methodology was completely accepted.

''We have argued that the fox population does not need to be and cannot be artificially controlled,'' Dr. Lindley said. ''This research has, on a completely objective basis, confirmed our belief.''

But the Countryside Alliance, an umbrella organization for hunting advocates and groups that champion rural causes, questioned the science behind the study. ''It was set up to study something else,'' said Tim Bonner, a spokesman for the alliance, who described Dr. Harris as a ''long-term opponent of us.'' Mr. Bonner also said the study did not cover some parts of Britain where hunting is very popular.

But Dr. Harris said his survey plots, which were randomly selected, included both well-hunted and hunt-free areas. ''And that's important for the results,'' he said. ''There was no difference between the two.''

Dr. Lindley said he was not surprised at the study's results, given that there are an estimated 400,000 to 700,000 foxes in Britain, and, even by generous estimates, hunting kills only 15,000 of them a year. ''Fifteen-thousand animals in the scale of things wouldn't make much of a difference,'' he said.

Dr. Harris said that over the years he had observed that foxes appeared to do a good job of regulating their numbers on their own -- for example, by producing smaller litters in overpopulated areas. ''Our data suggest that the way foxes regulate their own numbers is as important as any culling that is done,'' he said.
 
I'm not opposed to hunting just unnecessary suffering to an animal. A bullet to the head is quite different to hounds tearing a fox to peaces slowly, which of course is completely unnecessary.

There seems to be a major misconception about what actually happens in pack hunting, to begin with the hounds rarely attack the fox directly, and when they do the fox is dead within seconds, it suffers far less than snares (legal) and poison (illegal) and is not that different to shooting a fox with regard to the amount of suffering....the argument really revolves around the actual chase being unnecessarily stressful on the quarry animal, it being chased to exhaustion (although in many cases the fox is not caught) and that amounting to cruelty. The current hunting ban doesn't address that point as the chase itself is still legal with fewer dogs or using a bird of prey to kill the quarry, again which is somewhat more cruel (using the definition that the opposition are using) than hunting the fox with a pack and then shooting it.

Bloody hell Castiel I've bee back tracking through this thread and reading your comments has completely murdered any respect I had for you. I genuinely thought you were one of the good guys. :(

Then I suggest you read it again, because you appear to accusing me of something that I haven't said or supported.
 
You mention human rights, what about animal rights?
You obviously have no idea of the the mentality of a member of the country alliance. Animals are used for their own sadistic pleasure, hell even the hounds get put to sleep with a bullet in the back of the head once they start to mature around the age of seven. Animals to them are on the same level as an empty crisp packet floating in the wind. :(
 
You mention human rights, what about animal rights?

You might want to read the rest of what I have said about subjective morality regarding the rights of animals and how it relies on the subjective opinion of the individual and is largely influenced by the amount of direct contact with the particular issue at hand.
 
Stupid woman. While im not a fan of the way they still hunt them, they need to be kept under control like any other pest around such areas.

The only animal that needs to be controlled, and the greatest 'pest', is Homo Sapien.

Good on the lass for stepping in.
 
You were present at such an event and I assume it wasn't by force?

You might want to read it properly:


Most of the hunts I ever went on the poxy fox got away anyway. And before anyone starts throwing accusations about, the hunts I participated in were perfectly legal and either involved only one or two dogs to flush out the fox to be shot, or used a pack in Scotland for the same outcome, although I never really liked the pack hunting, for me it was really about hunting with a rifle.

I understand some people disagree with all forms of hunting and they are entitled to their opinion.

I was the marksman used to shot the fox as the hounds flushed the fox out. I quite clearly said that I never really liked pack hunting, it defeats the object of the exercise for me.

As for the relative cruelty involved:

http://www.vet-wildlifemanagement.org.uk/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=30&Itemid=32
 
You might want to read the rest of what I have said about subjective morality regarding the rights of animals and how it relies on the subjective opinion of the individual and is largely influenced by the amount of direct contact with the particular issue at hand.

You could arguably say the same things about human rights...

communities (any community) should ultimately be able to determine for themselves which policies they legislate on where the issue is limited to that community....there are obvious exceptions such as where those policies would affect human rights

So, what about animal rights? Should there not be exceptions where those policies affect animal rights?
 
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Are grey wolves officially classed as vermin in the UK?

Foxes do not simply kill a chicken and take it away to eat, they will butcher every one they can catch and just leave them there.
I don't see many of you holding placards up about the ghastly, brutal behaviour of the fox...

They are a pest, their numbers need keeping under control. Be that by gun or hound.
I don't get the hatred for the hunt though, it is performing a good service and just because people following the hunt enjoy the hack that somehow makes it 'ghastly'.

The fox being killed by a pack of dogs, doesn't get more natural than that, am sure for hundreds of years thats how foxes met their end anyway!

What I was trying to get across is that the term vermin is highly subjective. If Wolves were widely reintroduced I am sure there would be many people who would consider them vermin. But such animals do have a right to exist in our country.
 
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