Religion question?

[kedge]

Why care? Seriously, why do you care?
.

I care for truth.

 

[RDM]

I did not attack anyone nor am i ignorant.

Well you continue to be ignorant of what evolution is and you attacked all atheists by saying they are nihilists and scared of asking questions so you also seem to be ignorant of what atheism is.

So you're saying there is no such belief as evolution?

It is a scientific theory not a belief system. It is about as much as a belief as mavity.

How did life get to be here on earth?

What has that got to do with evolution?

, you see i don't ignore these types of questions, i research it and see what others have to say about it, but atheists choose to ignore these questions, i think atheists know the reason why and it puts a dent in your worldview.

See, there you go again, ascribing your personal worldview to all atheists. I do not choose to ignore the question, I am just not scared of saying "I don't know the answer yet." I do not say "I don't know the answer so it must be God!" My world view remains unchallenged, especially by you as you have so far been completely unable to put across a convincing argument for the existence of God.

 

[RDM]

I care for truth.

No you don't. You care for things that reinforce your world view, the evolution thread pretty much proved that.

 

[dirtychinchilla]

They may seem ridiculous to you, but they are not to a good portion of the population. Are you really that superior to them that your opinion means so much more than theirs? Or is it just another kind of prejudice?

If you are really going to oppose religion, then I would choose something a little more substantial than 'they are all stupid with stupid beliefs' as the basis for your reasoning. Religions are pretty complex things, with complex beliefs and philosophical positions, they have influenced and shaped the world, both positively and negatively....to simply say they are encouraging mass stupidity and belief in ridiculous things seems to indicate that you don't know too much about religion(s) other than the superficial.

Also, anti-clericalism and opposition to religion are hardly subjects that have been ignored over the centuries....creating your own little belief system seems to be counter to what you say your aims are and in direct contradiction to your post above the one I quoted and the one that follows.

As I'm sure you recognise, I call their beliefs stupid because, in my opinion, they are. I mean, frankly, I think most religious people are insane. This is my opinion and I'm not forcing it on you. They continue to be ridiculous.

Which belief system? Is that any belief system? You admit to a actively opposing religion because you believe they are all stupid and believe in stupid things, is this not a belief system in itself....is the phrase Belief System really that offensive to you that you would vehemently argue just because someone considers the basis that Atheism when used to oppose religion, needs to be a position with presuppositions which are able to logically, positively and actively support itself in opposition to theistic counter arguments and that is best served by creating an opposing belief system (as many atheists effectively do). For many people Atheism is a effectively a belief, particularly where the persons atheism is defined as a rejection of belief in God(s) or more significantly that there are no such thing as God(s)..which seems to be your position judging by your reference to stupidity and ridiculous beliefs......

The problem you have with disputing the 'belief' label is that even amongst Atheists there is no agreement on whether Atheism is or is not a belief system. Ultimately it depends, both on the individual and how they utilise atheism in their worldview as to whether it can be called a belief system or not. It is largely perceived as a form of belief nonetheless, whether it is a system or not depends on the type and individual manifestation that atheism takes.

The best way to be disassociated with something is not to engage it or associate with it....I also know many people who oppose religion who are theists and many atheists who support their local churches in various things in their communities. There are as many forms of atheism as there are people who believe in its philosophy, including those who use it as the basis of a complex belief system and those who don't really care, they simply don't believe in God.

I refuse to support something I disagree with - that wouldn't make any sense, as I'm sure you can understand. Nor will I encourage it in any way.

How have I formed a belief system? I don't believe in any deity, or anything unsupported by evidence. I think it's understandable to want to be disassociated from something that has absolutely nothing to do with you, other than the fact that you disagree with it.

 

[Haggisman]

i have tried to understand and take on the atheist worldview and the only way i could maintain this worldview is to ignore the information all around us, therefore pure atheism is a position of ignorance.

Would you care to explain what "information" it is that's being ignored?

I think one of the issues is that many atheists, like myself, want to be entirely disassociated from a belief system that we wish to have no part in, and which (often) feel is ridiculous, which is one of the reasons that we argue to vehemently when someone accuses us of having faith.

In which case the sensible position to take would be one of agnosticism - the "I don't know either way/don't care because it doesn't really affect me and I want to get on with my life in peace" position.

How have I formed a belief system? I don't believe in any deity, or anything unsupported by evidence.

Do you "not believe they exist" or do you "believe they don't exist"?

 

[estebanrey]

So you're saying there is no such belief as evolution? How did life get to be here on earth?

You do know that evolution (how living organisms change and adapt over time) is a different area of study to abiogenesis (how life on Earth began)?

Well you do now.

 

[dirtychinchilla]

In which case the sensible position to take would be one of agnosticism - the "I don't know either way/don't care because it doesn't really affect me and I want to get on with my life in peace" position.

I think you're right, however, people associate angosticism with belief in some sort of higher power and therefore I'd rather define myself as strictly anti-religious and disassociated by calling myself an atheist.

Do you "not believe they exist" or do you "believe they don't exist"?

I don't believe they exist but only to the extent that I'm forced to choose simply because the statement exists i.e. religions and deities are a purely human construct and only exist in people's minds.

 

[kedge]

Well you continue to be ignorant of what evolution is and you attacked all atheists by saying they are nihilists and scared of asking questions so you also seem to be ignorant of what atheism is.

Untrue chap, i know particles to people evolution is a theory, if folk want to believe that then that is their prerogative. I never said anything about nihilists the other chap did.

It is a scientific theory not a belief system.

What is science?, i can say what i think it is not, it is not a magik wand of sorts that can make things suddenly appear from nothing. In my honest opinion science is just knowledge, knowledge is knowing, scientists do research/study, gain knowledge about what they are observing and attempt to conclude their findings. Many believe that everything evolved from unguided random chance processess.

What has that got to do with evolution?.

i asked the question how did life get to be here or where did life come from?, as i have said, many believe life evolved from none life or inorganic matter.

See, there you go again, ascribing your personal worldview to all atheists.

I'm just chatting, having a cordial debate, nothing more nothing less, i'm curious that is all. My worldview is based on what i observe, see, the science i see and understand from scientists infers intelligent design, take the cell, it is a highly complex system, it is incredible, amazing, how could highly complex systems ever evolve from inorganic matter? how did all these incredible complex systems know how to assemble all the right parts in all the right places that have to be in the right order all at the right time to survive?. The human body has many complex systems, infact system within systems that many parts are dependant on other parts to functuion/work normally to survive. The human body has many vital organs, but at what stage of gradualistic step by step evolution did the vital organ become a none vital organ before it became a vital organ?, surely by definition the organ is dead-none functional?. What did the insects evolve from? what is the common ancestor to the insects?, which creature did the ant evolve from?. These are just some of the many questions raised by others, i think they are interesting questions. They are highly complex systems, i don't believe they came from nowhere, science tells me that life can only come from previous life.

 

[Haggisman]

So therefore you have the belief that:

religions and deities are a purely human construct and only exist in people's minds.

==========

how did all these incredible complex systems know how to assemble all the right parts in all the right places that have to be in the right order all at the right time to survive?.

And therein lies the issue. You believe that these systems were intentionally created to be the way they are, when it's just as likely they occurred by pure chance as a result of an almost infinite number of chemical reactions occurring over an almost infinite period of time.

 

[dirtychinchilla]

So therefore you have the belief that:

It is, in part, a belief, but more of an assertion. I assert that religion is a human construct, which it is, and I believe deity's do not exist only because you propose the question that they do exist to which I have to take some sort of position.

 

[Haggisman]

It is, in part, a belief, but more of an assertion. I assert that religion is a human construct, which it is, and I believe deity's do not exist only because you propose the question that they do exist to which I have to take some sort of position.

You don't have to take a position, simply nod, smile, step back and let them get on with it.

You've stated "I assert that religion is a human construct, which it is" as fact, but since you can't actually prove that, it's simply a belief.

 

[ubersonic]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_and_positive_atheism

"Positive atheism (also called strong atheism and hard atheism) is the form of atheism that asserts that no deities exist."

"Negative atheism (also called weak atheism and soft atheism) is any other type of atheism, wherein a person does not believe in the existence of any deities, but does not explicitly assert there to be none"

Just because something is on Wikipedia doesn't stop it being rubbish, that first example is Atheism, the second is Agnosticism. I don't know if this is an American corruption of English thing or what but the is no Atheism light, either you believe that the are no gods or you are not an Atheist.

 

[dirtychinchilla]

You don't have to take a position, simply nod, smile, step back and let them get on with it.

You've stated "I assert that religion is a human construct, which it is" as fact, but since you can't actually prove that, it's simply a belief.

If I disagree with something I will voice my opinion, particularly when that thing is a cause of great evil.

I'd rather not presume, but I'm fairly sure that even Castiel would assert that religion is a human construct. Whether there are deities or not, humans have created the concept of religion.

 

[Haggisman]

If I disagree with something I will voice my opinion, particularly when that thing is a cause of great evil.

I'd rather not presume, but I'm fairly sure that even Castiel would assert that religion is a human construct. Whether there are deities or not, humans have created the concept of religion.

I wont argue that religion is a human concept, but in a previous post you stated both religion and deities are human constructs. The second part of which we unfortunately can't prove!

I also don't believe it's a cause of great evil - more that it's a very convenient excuse for people to do evil things.

 

[dirtychinchilla]

I wont argue that religion is a human concept, but in a previous post you stated both religion and deities are human constructs. The second part of which we unfortunately can't prove!

I also don't believe it's a cause of great evil - more that it's a very convenient excuse for people to do evil things.

No, if you re-read it I said that I believe deities are a human construct, and I am aware that I cannot prove it, but I think it is highly likely.

Well I think you're partially right with regards to evil. However, many evil things have been done in the name of religion which have been decided by the heads of those religions and, as such, the religions are responsible for them.

 

[elmarko]

Just because something is on Wikipedia doesn't stop it being rubbish, that first example is Atheism, the second is Agnosticism. I don't know if this is an American corruption of English thing or what but the is no Atheism light, either you believe that the are no gods or you are not an Atheist.

Fallacy of false choices much? - that's just your subjective interpretation of what an atheist is (which isn't what atheists actually think).

Don't claim to know what others do or do not believe.

I lack a belief in a deity, I don't believe that there are no gods.

The positive/negative sub-groups make an important distinction between the two - while it may be convenient for the purpose of arguments to pretend these groups don't exists, it doesn't make it so.

Rejecting somebody else's theist assertion as being flawed isn't the same as holding a counter-belief in the opposite.

The simply definition of "atheist" is clearly insufficient due to the pretty poor level of understanding many display on the subject. (which is why the sub-groups exist).

Agnosticism concerns knowledge, atheism/theism concerns belief - they are different concepts.

The second example isn't agnosticism as being agnostic doesn't preclude a belief in a deity - you can be an agnostic-theist or an agnostic-atheist (many devoted theists are agnostic & accept that it's impossible to "know", but they have faith which is all they need).

 

[Haggisman]

No, if you re-read it I said that I believe deities are a human construct, and I am aware that I cannot prove it, but I think it is highly likely.

However ultimately it is still a belief in something unsupported by evidence, which is the point I was trying to make.

How have I formed a belief system? I don't believe in any deity, or anything unsupported by evidence. I think it's understandable to want to be disassociated from something that has absolutely nothing to do with you, other than the fact that you disagree with it.

 

[ubersonic]

that's just your subjective interpretation of what an atheist is (which isn't what atheists actually think).

No that's actually the proper definition of it (as per the OED), the weak/light/fake atheism is just an invention of recent times.

I lack a belief in a deity, I don't believe that there are no gods.

I am of the same opinion, it makes us agnostic not atheist.

 

[elmarko]

No that's actually the proper definition of it (as per the OED), the weak/light/fake atheism is just an invention of recent times.


I am of the same opinion, it makes us agnostic not atheist.

Just because greater levels of complexity were added recently (positive/negative) it doesn't make them any less valid.

Neurobiology is a pretty new field, but it doesn't make it any less real..

I am of the same opinion, it makes us agnostic not atheist.

That's not agnosticism, agnosticism doesn't concern belief.

Yes we may both be agnostic.

But you may believe in a god, you may actively believe that a god doesn't exist - or you may simply not believe anything (reject the assertion that a god exists).

You can't view agnosticism as a mid-way, as being agnostic has no bearing on if the person believes in a god or not (or doesn't hold a belief either way).

 

[Gilly]

You're right, agnosticism isn't a mid-way, it is a whole third choice.