You misspelt my name! I demand vengeance!! I challenge you to a duel accross space and time!
If you ignore the way he labels region as unjustified beliefs when the same is true of atheism then yeah sure
Religion question?
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You misspelt my name! I demand vengeance!! I challenge you to a duel accross space and time!
If you ignore the way he labels region as unjustified beliefs when the same is true of atheism then yeah sure
Soldato
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Yet you said having a set of values was intrinsic to being a religion.
And you aren't seriously equating, say, the 10 Commandments with some blog post someone has written whereby they self identify as an atheist and explain how they live their lives?
But there are a reasonably well defined set of values that can be ascribed to being Christian. However the only "value" ascribed to atheism is "not believing in God" which, as a life rule, seems to be somewhat limited in application.
Theism = belief in a god/gods
Atheism (positive) = belief a god doesn't exist
Atheism (negative) = lack of belief in a god.
Totally septate from the above.
Agnosticism - Agnosticism is the view that the truth values of certain claims—especially claims about the existence or non-existence of any deity, as well as other religious and metaphysical claims—are unknown and (so far as can be judged) unknowable.
Please do some basic research.
Is it really so hard for you to understand?, do you feel so much at a disadvantage admitting it's a matter of faith that you need to pretend that simply not being religious is another form of faith?.
I'm not mocking or insulting what you believe, just stating as a fact what I believe (along with a majority of thinking atheists) - stop trying to tell me what I believe - it's not only pointless & stupid, but also completely wrong.
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Soldato
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Also, whilst theism and atheism specifically and only refer to the question of God (and by extension religion). The word agnostic is more general and can be applied to anything.
You can be agnostic about the existence of fairies for example, or agnostic about whether man landed on the moon or not (you'd be nuts but still agnostic).
That's why I don't like the 'third choice' position most people see agnosticism as.
You can be agnostic about the existence of fairies for example, or agnostic about whether man landed on the moon or not (you'd be nuts but still agnostic).
That's why I don't like the 'third choice' position most people see agnosticism as.
I'm not telling you what you believe, just the name for the definition of a person who believes what you do
Anyway I'm going to step out for a moment now, I'm not bailing the thread its just I'm very outnumbered at the moment so anything I say will get flamed to dust by half a dozen people before I can correctly address the first thing like happened to Estebanrey before when he was trying to argue with me/Gilly/Castiel all at once.
Once you learn what agnosticism is you will accept it's not a mid-way point of view & while you are correct by saying I'm agnostic, you are wrong to think that agnosticism isn't compatible with theism & atheism.I'm not telling you what you believe, just the name for the definition of a person who believes what you do
I'm sure most people know what the meaning of agnosticism is, along with an appreciation for the fact that atheism has a number of sub-categories to account for the variation in views what posed the question "do you believe in god".
I'm not saying any view is superior, just that these groups exist - hardly contentious or something I should even have to argue the point.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnosticism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theism
Read these & make a note of all the different definitions - don't cherry pick one & pretend the rest don't exist.
My problem with the use of the term agnostic by the average member of the public is that they don't even know what it means.
Many people who self-identify as agnostics are actually atheists or theists - the person who says
"I don't believe in god, but I don't really know" - are actually atheists.
"I don't follow Christianity but I do believe that some form of god exists" - are actually theists.
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Soldato
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I haven't read the whole thread just some bickering over the last few pages.
I'd consider myself an Agnostic.
What I will say is this, other than the odd Jehovahs Witness dropping by to try and convert me and promptly leaving when I refuse to listen to them (they're always polite) I have never had religious types try and push their religion on me anywhere near as much or as atheists try and push their beliefs.
You just have to look at this forum, as soon as someone posts something about religion threads fill up with Atheists telling religious folk how wrong they are.
I know in some countries religion is wrongly pushed onto people but Atheism is pushed just as hard (at least in the Western world).
I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with religion. Its basically books just telling people how to live a decent life (in general) and that is not to say you can't be a good person without religion.
Some text is horrendously outdated (anti homosexuality etc and to be honest I haven't read the bible so I don't even know how anti homosexual etc it is, a passage saying "a man must not lay with another man" certainly doesn't warrant the hate that some religious nuts harbour towards them).
This leads to the main problem with religion, groups of people misinterpreting texts and groups of people using religion as a scapegoat to do bad things.
Tl:dr -
Religion - Okay
People - Bad
I'd consider myself an Agnostic.
What I will say is this, other than the odd Jehovahs Witness dropping by to try and convert me and promptly leaving when I refuse to listen to them (they're always polite) I have never had religious types try and push their religion on me anywhere near as much or as atheists try and push their beliefs.
You just have to look at this forum, as soon as someone posts something about religion threads fill up with Atheists telling religious folk how wrong they are.
I know in some countries religion is wrongly pushed onto people but Atheism is pushed just as hard (at least in the Western world).
I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with religion. Its basically books just telling people how to live a decent life (in general) and that is not to say you can't be a good person without religion.
Some text is horrendously outdated (anti homosexuality etc and to be honest I haven't read the bible so I don't even know how anti homosexual etc it is, a passage saying "a man must not lay with another man" certainly doesn't warrant the hate that some religious nuts harbour towards them).
This leads to the main problem with religion, groups of people misinterpreting texts and groups of people using religion as a scapegoat to do bad things.
Tl:dr -
Religion - Okay
People - Bad
Soldato
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May I add "antitheism" to that list?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antitheism
....which is what a lot of people seem to think atheism is, judging by some of the comments here. When ubersonic and, dare I say Castiel, describe an atheist it sounds to me like they are describing an antitheist to me (i.e someone who knows about the concept of god, rejects it totally and tries to convince others theism is wrong).
It's why the late, great Christopher Hitchens would always correct anyone who called him an atheist and say "I'm not an atheist, I'm an antitheist".
Soldato
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Same, so is Gilly
Really? You're so angry and worked up that that one just slipped you by? Or do you have Aspergers syndrome?
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Soldato
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I honestly don't know the motivation or point of this post.
You're thinking of agnostics.
Atheists actively believe that god doesn't exist, in much the same way as someone who destroys stamps is actively not collecting them (it really is a terrible analogy, perhaps I should have used a stamp giver-awayer. Wouldn't that be a philanthropic philatelist?
Both are actively doing something with stamps, but at the opposite ends of the spectrum. Meanwhile everyone else is going about their daily lives ignoring stamps altogether, i.e. agnostic.
Uh NOM8
Atheists don't collect stamps, they don't believe in god, destroying stamps would be a hobby like destroying religion, as in, burning down churches and campaigning for Atheist rights. There is a big difference. Agnostics don't know whether there is a God or not, they are 50/50 on the matter. Atheist believe their is no God, but are perfectly willing to be challenged and have their minds changed.
Where the comparison with religious people come in there is the people who believe in a God, have their theories shown to be proven incorrect, and rather than changing their minds, adapt their belief in God to fit in with their new reality. An atheist who took their atheism to that extent would be someone who didn't believe in God, and then when God came about, he still refused to believe it denying the evidence presented that showed he did exist, so someone with a mental illness, much like most religious people.
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But it isnt okay, it makes otherwise good people do bad things.
Soldato
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I disagree.
Bad people do bad things or bad people make good people do bad things.
You could also say religion is responsible for otherwise bad people doing good things.
Agreed, its not like bad things have never been done in the name of atheism (at least in part).
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Agnostic here. Don't claim to know if there is a god or not. But I've been reading some Carl Jung of late and he makes some good points on why we have religion (early man's symbols) and how we relate to/misunderstand it with relation to our subconscious.
Soldato
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You don't actively believe in a god. Thus you are atheist (atheist means 'not a theist' - such a simple point many fail tro grasp).
On the question as to whether a god could exist, you are agnostic.
Soldato
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I've never heard of anyone doing anything bad in the name of Atheism, got any examples?
Unlike people who think their god is telling them to blow themselves up or kill young women who are trying to vaccinate children against polio to use a recent example.