Have we become too 'accepting'.

[Woden]

Neurological studies show that these persons literally have the wrong brain for their physical gender, using surgery to modify the exterior is perfectly reasonable and for any reasoned mind would result in a physical change of gender. There's simply no argument against, you may have an opinion and that's okay but it doesn't mean that your opinion is of any value.

A problem we have, pretty much the world over, is a misunderstanding (for want of a better term) of the general public with psychological problems.

A massive majority of people have this idea that any psychological problem is something you can just snap out of. That OCD is just being fussy, being depressed is a choice, things like that. Things are getting better but it is very slow. We are only just getting through to people that being gay isn't a choice, and even that is a struggle.

It doesn't help that the terms are often misused, people are a bit down will say they are depressed, that's the worst IMHO.

I shall now get off my soap-box. Mental health issues is just a personal point with me, having been effected myself.

 

[Tokin]

We don't accept these things, channel 4 just makes a show so we can sit comfortably at home point the finger and going "ewwwww what freaks".

It might be billed as acceptance and understanding, but it is just a good nosey into something creepy that we can all have a good chuckle about afterwards.

Couldn't of said it better myself

 

[spoffle]

A problem we have, pretty much the world over, is a misunderstanding (for want of a better term) of the general public with psychological problems.

A massive majority of people have this idea that any psychological problem is something you can just snap out of. That OCD is just being fussy, being depressed is a choice, things like that. Things are getting better but it is very slow. We are only just getting through to people that being gay isn't a choice, and even that is a struggle.

It doesn't help that the terms are often misused, people are a bit down will say they are depressed, that's the worst IMHO.

I shall now get off my soap-box. Mental health issues is just a personal point with me, having been effected myself.

The issue there is that people associate depression with being a mild emotional state, when it's nothing of the sort.

I've lost count of the amount of people I've heard say "I'm feeling a bit depressed today" which always confuses me, because it's not something you feel "a bit of" in that way.

Though, I know they often do it to be dramatic, but I don't know why they can't just say "I'm feeling down" instead of dragging "depressed" in to it.

 

[Mitzy]

Because some people don't believe that you can change gender, and considering the situation it should be up to the person who's had the surgery to be very up front about it.

It's not ridiculous, and to compare it with "that you had a thing with your cousin when you were 13 and hand group fun at a party one time" is what's ridiculous as it's completely different.

Its different for you yes, it's different for everyone, my point is you can't hold anyone to any higher standard just because its different for you.

 

[Mitzy]

A problem we have, pretty much the world over, is a misunderstanding (for want of a better term) of the general public with psychological problems.

A massive majority of people have this idea that any psychological problem is something you can just snap out of. That OCD is just being fussy, being depressed is a choice, things like that. Things are getting better but it is very slow. We are only just getting through to people that being gay isn't a choice, and even that is a struggle.

It doesn't help that the terms are often misused, people are a bit down will say they are depressed, that's the worst IMHO.

I shall now get off my soap-box. Mental health issues is just a personal point with me, having been effected myself.

Couldn't agree more.

This thread and 75% of the responses highlight exactly what you're saying, thanks for sharing your reasoned point of view. If people would honestly interrogate their held opinions every once in a while I suspect the world would be a better place.

 

[spoffle]

Its different for you yes, it's different for everyone, my point is you can't hold anyone to any higher standard just because its different for you.

I'm not holding anyone to any higher standards. The "I used to be a man/woman" is a pretty big thing and there isn't much that would top that that would have an affect on the relationship's longevity.

 

[~>Dg<~]

i seen a prog about this before wasn't this one and the people wernt mentally ill they just liked it also one of the guys had a prostitute ride him

tbh if they like it and it doesn't effect others wtf does it matter

people claiming there deranged or mentally ill probably are ch4 regs not everyone likes doing jigsaws or other stuff . its a world full of people doing different things

 

[Mitzy]

I'm not holding anyone to any higher standards. The "I used to be a man/woman" is a pretty big thing and there isn't much that would top that that would have an affect on the relationship's longevity.

Your argument could describe any circumstance, therefore it's redundant.

 

[semi-pro waster]

I don't think it is, it's a fact. Cosmetic surgery does not allow you to change your sex.

We're not going down this road again, you can legally change your gender. You (and others) might not accept this but, to be blunt, you putting it down as "fact" doesn't alter the situation one iota.

You can't change your gender. Let's be honest.

How many guys here would date and have sex with a "girl" who used to be a man?

That's right, almost none.

This has been done to death in another thread, it's probably best not to steer this one onto that course too.

That's quite a simplification of his views. It wasn't that he was being prejudiced against transexuals, it was a case of him saying that if that's what they want or need to do to make themselves feel better and live a fulfilling life, then great, but he won't accept that they have genuinely changed their gender.

If I've been unfair in how I characterised Craterloads' views then I apologise but given the tone of his first post in this thread and his previous posts on people who don't conform to gender norms I don't think I was unduly harsh.

What makes it prejudice is how you decide to conduct yourself towards such a person, and simply refusing to accept that they can change gender in itself isn't prejudice.

Of course it's a prejudice, a prejudice is an opinion or feeling - it doesn't require action. To note that something is a prejudice doesn't automatically make it a bad thing, despite the most commonly held prejudices being negative - we're all prejudiced to greater or lesser degrees and that will affect (either positively or negatively) how we approach things and interact with people. It may be subtle or it may be overt but recognising that we have prejudices goes some way to minimising the impacts of them.

 

[FoxEye]

[edit: typed this before being asked not to I'll leave it here now]

@Mitzy: Do a poll of a random cross section of men.

a) how many would be happy to have a relationship with an ex-man
b) how many would be happy to have kissed an ex-man without knowing (because they didn't tell them)
c) how many ... well, you get the point.

In the majority of cases I'd expect any given heterosexual man to be embarrassed and upset if he'd been deceived into having a relationship with an ex-man. Even a bit of a kiss and fumble would be traumatising to find out after the fact.

You can't forcibly "enlighten" men by tricking them into having relationships with ex-men. You know what that will do? It'll lead to reprisals, lawsuits, violence (most likely).

I know personally I'd be angry/sick/horrified if I'd been tricked into snogging an ex-man (or worse!). You can't just say "your problem, you're just ignorant". To even suggest that's OK is beyond astounding!

 

[Johno please?]

Yes we are too accepting, of Degenerates/Chavs and Religious Fundamentalists.

I'd have them all rounded up by storm troopers in white vans labeled "civil protection" and sent off to the "Island Of Fun" (It would most likely not be fun)

OT: Adult babies? do. not. care. Although that American one was a bit of a pedo as he was also having sexual relations with her. Hmmm.

 

[Craterloads]

We're not going down this road again, you can legally change your gender. You (and others) might not accept this but, to be blunt, you putting it down as "fact" doesn't alter the situation one iota.

How does a legal standpoint effect something that isn't confined within the realms of politics? What man made, non scientific law states doesn't alter the facts one iota. If the law was changed tomorrow to state dogs are in fact fish, are you going to accept that or use a little common sense and appreciate the politics behind such a law? Anyhow not even worth discussing, about as insightful as debating wether we breath in oxygen or not.

 

[krooton]

OT: Adult babies? do. not. care. Although that American one was a bit of a pedo as he was also having sexual relations with her. Hmmm.

He was the "baby" how could that make him a paedo?

 

[spoffle]

He was the "baby" how could that make him a paedo?

Because it seems most people don't actually understand what it means.

 

[Mitzy]

[edit: typed this before being asked not to I'll leave it here now]

Lets hope I don't get in trouble for replying then.

@Mitzy: Do a poll of a random cross section of men.

a) how many would be happy to have a relationship with an ex-man
b) how many would be happy to have kissed an ex-man without knowing (because they didn't tell them)
c) how many ... well, you get the point.

Well, I'd first like to point out how emotive and leading those questions would be. Secondly, perhaps more importantly, why would you expect heterosexual men to have a negative experience, in my opinion a lot of that negativity would stem from how their peers would perceive them.

But back to reality, imagine conducting a questionnaire of heterosexual men who had relationships with women that were previously known as men. More reasonable questions would be.

a) Were you happy to continue your relationship with your partner after they had revealed their previous gender?
b) How did you feel when your partner first told you?
c) My point is Joe Public isn't going to give you any meaningful responses, you need to speak to the people who have been in the situation.

In the majority of cases I'd expect any given heterosexual man to be embarrassed and upset if he'd been deceived into having a relationship with an ex-man. Even a bit of a kiss and fumble would be traumatising to find out after the fact.

If the truth is revealed then surely you couldn't have been deceived, being deceived would imply a blatant lie (A would ask B and B denied his/her previous gender). I don't think that's what you mean though, I think you're latching onto what Spoofle had discussed and that was the potential partner not stating point blank at inception that he/she was of a previous gender. Obviously this train of thought is a bit silly, you do not reveal deeply personal information to someone when you're trying to judge the possibility of a developing relationship, that comes after you trust them enough to reveal your vulnerabilities.

People can have objections to relationships for all kinds of reasons, everyone has a skeleton or a secret that is deeply personal. You or I have no idea what one person would find deeply objectionable, we therefore are very guarded about revealing these things and will only do so once we have developed a certain amount of trust. This is not unreasonable.

You can't forcibly "enlighten" men by tricking them into having relationships with ex-men. You know what that will do? It'll lead to reprisals, lawsuits, violence (most likely).

I am not trying to enlighten anyone and neither are those individuals who have had a gender reassignment surgery who wish to pursue a relationship.

I know personally I'd be angry/sick/horrified if I'd been tricked into snogging an ex-man (or worse!). You can't just say "your problem, you're just ignorant". To even suggest that's OK is beyond astounding!

Again, so emotive. If you choose to 'snog' someone you don't know who later turns out not to be as you imagined it's nobodies fault but yours. So in your example, yes you would be willfully ignorant.

 

[Mitzy]

How does a legal standpoint effect something that isn't confined within the realms of politics? What man made, non scientific law states doesn't alter the facts one iota. If the law was changed tomorrow to state dogs are in fact fish, are you going to accept that or use a little common sense and appreciate the politics behind such a law? Anyhow not even worth discussing, about as insightful as debating wether we breath in oxygen or not.

Here's some facts.

Some people are born with a female/male brain while their physical body is the opposite(SCIENCE). These individuals literally feel like they're trapped in the wrong body(SCIENCE). How dare you imply politics are the driving force for protecting these individuals. Laws can't stop people having ignorant thoughts but they do help to stop people from acting their ignorance's out by discriminating against others.

You cannot choose where you're born, you cannot choose who your parents are, you cannot choose your sexuality, you cannot choose your gender identity or your physical gender. The general public needs to have a big ol'dose of coffee. Sexual identity is defined personally, and quite rightly is protected by law.

If your fish acts female, thinks like a female and looks female then by all accounts the fish is female. If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck.

 

[Craterloads]

If the truth is revealed then surely you couldn't have been deceived, being deceived would imply a blatant lie (A would ask B and B denied his/her previous gender). I don't think that's what you mean though, I

Give it a rest with this nonsense

The blatant lie in this situation would be pretending to be a woman in the first place. Yes pretending, with the knowledge that the vast majority of men would oppose to being duped into a homosexual relationship, is lying.

I think you're latching onto what Spoofle had discussed and that was the potential partner not stating point blank at inception that he/she was of a previous gender. Obviously this train of thought is a bit silly, you do not reveal deeply personal information to someone when you're trying to judge the possibility of a developing relationship, that comes after you trust them enough to reveal your vulnerabilities.

You state it in past tense like something has actually changed? The mere fact that a majority of partners would oppose such a relationship, and importantly, you knowing this, is reason enough to divulge such critical, life changing information for a potential partner. You can NOT judge the possibility of a developing relationship off such a scandalous deception. I find it absurd you trying to compare "I’m a biological man" to "i have a false leg (insert vulnerability)", when the implications of both are astronomically apart.

Whilst my opinion may be strong on the matter, i will without guilt or
apprehensions state, any man/woman crossbreed who by deception rapes any heterosexual man, deserves everything they get in retaliation when they find out. Anything.

I would change the law, to protect people from such deception and any crimes committed in the heat of the moment, be dealt with leniently.

 

[[FnG]magnolia]

Has this happened to you Craterloads? I remember you being so invested in the other thread that it really did move the bar from being merely interested to one who was affected.

 

[^TANK^]

Morning all.

Last night the other half was watching this documentary on 'Adult Babies' who are as you can probably guess, adults who dress up as babies and pretend to act like babies (i.e. have their nappies changed, be fed by there 'Mum' or 'Dad'.)

Watching the show, it was clear that these adults all had very bad childhoods (domestic violence, parents divorce etc.) and want to re-live their childhood as they believe they should have lived it.

These people need psychiatric help but people just seem to 'accept' that it's OK.

I believe we accept to many things because we've all been brought up to accept other people for their oddities because they're 'special' and that everyone is different and we should not judge.

But how can the human race progress and evolve when we're to busy accepting people for obvious mental health issues instead of trying to cure them.

Have we become to accepting or am I just being a moaning ol' .....

What disturbs me the most is that some of them like to engage in sexual activity whilst dressed up as babies. o_O

 

[spoffle]

Here's some facts.

Some people are born with a female/male brain while their physical body is the opposite(SCIENCE). These individuals literally feel like they're trapped in the wrong body(SCIENCE). How dare you imply politics are the driving force for protecting these individuals. Laws can't stop people having ignorant thoughts but they do help to stop people from acting their ignorance's out by discriminating against others.

You cannot choose where you're born, you cannot choose who your parents are, you cannot choose your sexuality, you cannot choose your gender identity or your physical gender. The general public needs to have a big ol'dose of coffee. Sexual identity is defined personally, and quite rightly is protected by law.

If your fish acts female, thinks like a female and looks female then by all accounts the fish is female. If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck.

So Michael Jackson was Caucasian then, I see.