Why do we want or even expect equality in society?

What examples of this do you oppose?

??

I was agreeing with him, and actually your points about meritocracy.

I don't know what the solution is though sadly :( Not everyone is equal, and whilst some will strive to be better, some will just float along as they are, some will just let themselves be the lowest common denominator. It's just the way we are as humans. Ergo, we will never be identical - there will always be the alphas, betas and epsilons of society.
 
Whilst it is true that people should have the same opportunities as everyone else. I don't think it's a good idea to allow everyone to have the same opportunities. The opportunity for some people to do something that they will 99.9% chance fail at is not economical. Opportunities should only be given if they are likely to be able to grasp it. Examples are degrees, lower than that, A-Levels.
 
Absolutely, but the institutionalised notion we have is this also means equal abilities.

There are reasons that as a country we are descending down the worldwide league tables.

That's thanks to the PC brigade, one or two of which have turned up in this thread.

Discriminating based on ability is of course not only fine, but the only sensible option. To anyone who says we are all equal - you're very lucky not to have worked with some of the people I have.
 
What you're saying is dependant on "perceived or measured abilities" kids should be pushed or not pushed depending on how they perform or look?

I'll take a society that does it's best to offer equal opportunities to anyone who wants to try. Not simply cherry pick, those that are deemed acceptable or privileged enough. You talk about race and gender, boys makes good soldiers, girls make good nurses.. So Queen Boadicea was in the wrong job in your version of the world, and what of all the male consultants working for the NHS, should that be in the army?

Yes because Queen Boadicea lived in a society of organised professional armies and national healthcare systems.
 
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What you're saying is dependant on "perceived or measured abilities" kids should be pushed or not pushed depending on how they perform or look?

I'll take a society that does it's best to offer equal opportunities to anyone who wants to try. Not simply cherry pick, those that are deemed acceptable or privileged enough. You talk about race and gender, boys makes good soldiers, girls make good nurses.. So Queen Boadicea was in the wrong job in your version of the world, and what of all the male consultants working for the NHS, should that be in the army?

I said more likely, not a black/white distinction, there is plenty of grey. Don't make me start drawing venn diagrams.
 
You talk about race and gender, boys makes good soldiers, girls make good nurses.. So Queen Boadicea was in the wrong job in your version of the world, and what of all the male consultants working for the NHS, should they be in the army?

Your examples are poor.

Boadicea was a leader not a soldier.

Girls being good at nursing does not preclude men from being good too - oh and consultants are Doctors not nurses.
 
Animal Farm talked about equality and that ended up with freaky pigs wearing clothes and drinking brandy. Do you really want that to happen?

All animals are equal.

Some are more equal than others.
 
No they're not, did you not even read the OP's post? :confused:

Men and women aren't equal, this is simply a fact.

People should have equal rights, yes, but people are not all equal.

Indeed - and they will never be. Strive to be sure, that promotes competition and personal improvement and determination and innovation. However, unless we're all born in a testube as genetic copies of one another, we will always be different, and thankfully so!
 
Why do we want or even expect equality? People are simply not born equal so why do we as society waste so much time, money and energy either forcing, pretending or convincing ourselves that everyone is?

What is wrong with having schools designed to push clever kids and schools designed to provide extra support for not so clever kids? It is not fair to the children or the future of our country to pretend otherwise.

Race and gender have a direct bearing on certain abilities. It is a simple fact of life, but modern society dictates we are not allowed to talk about it or point it out.

There are physiological reasons that a black guy always wins at sprinting and a white guy always wins at swimming.

There are reasons that men are more prone to be in the armed services while women are more likely to be in the health profession.

1) There such schools already
2)We are allowed to talk about race advantage and disandvantage, they do, they even do documentaries on it and 100m spring in dominated by black runners, especially those descendants from slaves.

Edit: the concept of equality is there to prevent prejudice. People are not physicially nor mentally equal and in reality they're not treated equal
 
Why do we want or even expect equality? People are simply not born equal so why do we as society waste so much time, money and energy either forcing, pretending or convincing ourselves that everyone is?

Its actually more simple that that. Sure people aren't born with equal physiologically, but who are you to tell people what they can and cannot achieve?

End of the day everyone deserves an equal start* and the opportunities to create their own path. This is why we have free education in the younger years, and why we should probably continue to have free education in the later years.

Sure, I can probably agree we have too many people going to Uni and doing degrees that don't matter, but entry should be based on performance as opposed to whos can and cannot afford it best.

What is wrong with having schools designed to push clever kids and schools designed to provide extra support for not so clever kids? It is not fair to the children or the future of our country to pretend otherwise.

Nothing is wrong with that. This is a byproduct of our stupidity in managing the system, not one of giving equal opportunities. I'm fairly sure finland still has vocational schools and their education standards are oftren rated amoung the best in the world. I personally think it's a great idea.

What I would say is you should still probably give the kids that behaves well a choice. I remember being about 16-17 and telling my guidance teacher I wanted to take Higher English. Despite being a well behaved student I was basically laughed out of the room and put into a lower level in a class with disruptive students who were only taking the class as it was a requirement.

End of the year I got the highest mark achievable to the level of class (and therefore exams) that I were allowed to take. But I can't help think that with a better learning environment, maybe I'd actually learned to write well instead of just passable.

The next year again I was told I wasn't eligible as this was decided before the results got back and she assumed I would fail or have a fairly low pass. After essentially being forced to retake the lower module. I started cutting this class. When I realised nobody cared, I started cutting others.

I've read schools in Scotland are doing a lot better nowadays. I certainly hope so. Luckily for me, college was much more agreeable.

Race and gender have a direct bearing on certain abilities. It is a simple fact of life, but modern society dictates we are not allowed to talk about it or point it out.

There are physiological reasons that a black guy always wins at sprinting and a white guy always wins at swimming.

There are reasons that men are more prone to be in the armed services while women are more likely to be in the health profession.

This is actually a good point.

We need to push back against positive discrimination and feminism attempting to equalise the work place. A woman with equal experience and skills should typically earn as much as a man, nobody will argue against that.

However the facts and figures banded about aren't comparing equals. If Woman are less likely to spend as much of their time working than Men and are likely to follow less dangerous or difficult paths, they certainly shouldn't be earning equal amounts to Men.

With regards to race, the lines are much less well defined. Class is probably still a much bigger divider regarding what you can and cannot achieve in this country than race or sex.


* You can't really have an equal start in a world where some parents are rich or caring whilst others aren't. However, the inability to achieve the goal doesn't mean it isn't worth striving ever closer to.

Also not being equal is the wrong way to put it. Everyone is equal but not everyone is the same or equal in every attribute for example. The word equal actually has a different meaning in this context.
 
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Your examples are poor.

Boadicea was a leader not a soldier.

Girls being good at nursing does not preclude men from being good too - oh and consultants are Doctors not nurses.

I didn't say consultants were nurses, I said they worked within the NHS. (A caring profession) Shame my examples don't meet your exacting standard, who knows I may not be of the right race, colour or even gender of your choosing either.. It would appear you have so many prejudices I'm struggling to keep up.
 
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Why do we want or even expect equality? People are simply not born equal so why do we as society waste so much time, money and energy either forcing, pretending or convincing ourselves that everyone is?

What is wrong with having schools designed to push clever kids and schools designed to provide extra support for not so clever kids? It is not fair to the children or the future of our country to pretend otherwise.

Race and gender have a direct bearing on certain abilities. It is a simple fact of life, but modern society dictates we are not allowed to talk about it or point it out.

There are physiological reasons that a black guy always wins at sprinting and a white guy always wins at swimming.

There are reasons that men are more prone to be in the armed services while women are more likely to be in the health profession.

If you don't have equality in society you undermine the very fabric of society. With time the less equal will on a personal level remove themselves from that society. Don't be coming round here any more whitey.
 
Shame my examples don't meet your exacting standard, who knows I may not be of the right race, colour or even gender of your choosing either.. It would appear you have so many prejudices I'm struggling to keep up.

the retort of someone with a solid understanding of their own argument.
 
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