Will God accept you if you renounce religion?

Jason2 said:
Er, yes he did. He conquered death and then ascended to heaven. Death had no power over him. If that's not mastery then I don't know what is.
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"The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus' resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people." Matthew 27:52-53

What about the other folks that conquered death, don't forget about them. Or do these guys not count?
 
Jason2 said:
But you were saying that the resurrection was taken from Osiris, yet there really isn't a resurrection, at least not in the terms that we are speaking about.

Er, yes he did. He conquered death and then ascended to heaven. Death had no power over him. If that's not mastery then I don't know what is.
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Where are you getting your information? The story of Osiris is that he comes back to life and has sex with another god.

No the resurrection is not permanent, but neither is that of Jesus. Unless like I say, the living can enter heaven.

And with regards to who conquered death, i would say God was the one who conquered death, and Jesus was brought back to life by him. Hence he conquered nothing. Conquering requires an achievement, not a gift.
 
ringo747 said:
The reason I don't need to pick up a dictionary is because in this thread we have witnessed atheism being described as a lack of belief in God!
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I thought that was you :p


What evidence would support your view?
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Ok - now I'm certain you're just on a wind-up... the Oxford English Dictionary
Definition of atheism
noun
[mass noun]
disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods.
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I'm stupid? Why? Because we have differing opinions? Shall we compare CVs to see if your claim turns out to be true?
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Feel free, I sometimes enjoy making people feel inferior. Bare in mind I have a masters in Astrophysics and have just been transferred to one of the largest companies in Switzerland... and not for an entry level position ;)

Er, I have unfortunately had to define objective morality about 20 times in this thread and still people can't see to understand it.
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It's a rather simple concept.

I'm genuinely interested on what basis you have concluded that the resurrection is any of the above. I'm not saying it is historical fact, just asking about your reasoning.

Crackpot theory? You seem very sure. Again, on what basis have you reached that conclusion? Is it because the writings about the account aren't close enough to the event? Is it the theory that Jesus didn't even exist? What direction you coming from?
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Forget any reasoning on my behalf, it is irrelevant.

It's an incredibly simple process.

Person comes up with idea - that person is then required to prove its validity.

The people who make the claims are the ones who have to prove it... as per my post... it's the same as me saying I have just come back from visiting Narnia and then asking you to disprove it... you can't.
 
wannabedamned said:
Where are you getting your information? The story of Osiris is that he comes back to life and has sex with another god.

No the resurrection is not permanent, but neither is that of Jesus. Unless like I say, the living can enter heaven.

And with regards to who conquered death, i would say God was the one who conquered death, and Jesus was brought back to life by him. Hence he conquered nothing. Conquering requires an achievement, not a gift.
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The question should be, where are YOU getting your information from?

http://www.touregypt.net/godsofegypt/legendofosiris.htm
Set discovered them. He stole the body of Osiris and tore it into many pieces, scattering them throughout Egypt. He was sure that Osiris would never be reborn.

Yet Isis would not despair. She implored the help of her sister Nephthys, kind Nephthys, to guide her and help her find the pieces of Osiris. Long did they search, bringing each piece to Thoth that he might work magic upon it. When all the pieces were together, Thoth went to Anubis, lord of the dead. Anubis sewed the pieces back together, washed the entrails of Osiris, embalmed him wrapped him in linen, and cast the Ritual of Life. When Osiris' mouth was opened, his spirit reentered him and he lived again.

Yet nothing that has died, not even a god, may dwell in the land of the living. Osiris went to Duat, the abode of the dead. Anubis yielded the throne to him and he became the lord of the dead. There he stands in judgment over the souls of the dead. He commends the just to the Blessed Land, but the wicked he condemns to be devoured by Ammit.

When Set heard that Osiris lived again he was wroth, but his anger waned, for he knew that Osiris could never return to the land of the living.
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wannabedamned said:
You see where it says he lived again but cant dwell In the land of the living? So he was there but couldnt dwell...
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I'm afraid you're going have to show me where he came back alive and had sex with some other God because I cannot find that anywhere. He quite clearly says that he went straight to "Duat, the abode of the dead, and became the Lord of the dead." There is no mention of him "physically" coming back to life. Essentially, Osiris is nothing more than an after life story. Of course this fits in with Ancient Egyptian religion, since they believed all humans possessed a ka, or life-force, which left the body at the point of death. They certainly didn't believe that you can return to life in this world.

So I'm afraid you cannot say the resurrection is a copy story, since there are no resurrections from the dead pre-Jesus.
 
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Naffa said:
"The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus' resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people." Matthew 27:52-53

What about the other folks that conquered death, don't forget about them. Or do these guys not count?
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They didn't "conquer" death, though, did they? Christ raised them to show his power and that he alone holds the keys to death. What happened to these saints afterwards is open to debate. Whether they ascended into heaven with Jesus or resumed their natural lives. We really can't tell for Matthew doesn't say too much about it.
 
wannabedamned said:
You see where it says he lived again but cant dwell In the land of the living? So he was there but couldnt dwell...
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Life was breathed into Osiris by Isis, although I was always under the impression that Osiris (apart from the copulation during Isis' attempt to resurrect him into the land of the living) was sent to Duat where he resided as ruler all most immediately after his body was put back together. Part of the point of the story was that the dead could not be resurrected to reside in the world of the living, but the spirit could be restored if the body was whole, hense the mummification and so on.......rather than in Christianity whereby Christ's body was dead, but he was resurrected whole, not just spiritually and was alive for some time before ascending to heaven (remember Christ ascended bodily to Heaven, he did not die again, essentially he remains alive eternally). I think you can draw parallels, but then you can draw parallels with any resurrection belief merely because they are resurrection beliefs...but only superficially.
 
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Hellsmk2 said:
I reject it because it is not evidence.

Actually, I jest... It's evidence of stupidity. Nothing more, nothing less.
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It's evidence that Christians existed by the mid-late 1st century AD, since it's evidence that some people believed the stories about Jesus rising from the dead.

But it's not evidence that it actually happened.

One of the claims jumped out at me...why would Roman legionaries be assigned to guard the tomb of a minor preacher in a minor religion in a minor province of the empire, who'd been executed? Even if they had been and even if the tomb was later found to be empty (and the fact that some people believed it to be true as an act of religious faith is not evidence that it is true), that does not mean that his followers must have overpowered the guards to take his corpse. A discreet order from further up the ladder to allow them to take the corpse because doing so would cause less disturbance and disorder is entirely plausible, as is the Romans removing the corpse themselves for the same reason. Even bribery is a possibility.
 
ringo747 said:
I have one word for you. Unfortunately it begins with e.
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You'd embarrass yourself less if you admitted that you don't have clue about your mythical objective moral values. Keep on believing in them though, do whatever you need to to stop yourself becoming a rapist...
 
zenf1 said:
You'd embarrass yourself less if you admitted that you don't have clue about your mythical objective moral values. Keep on believing in them though, do whatever you need to to stop yourself becoming a rapist...
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I've no reason to be embarrassed about believing that objective moral values and duties exist, especially when it is the majority view among philosophers today.

Don't worry I don't intend to become a rapist - I believe it is objectively wrong. It is the moral relativist that has the problems it seems.

hurfdurf said:
It is indeed very frightning when a religious person asks you "what is stopping you murdering and raping people if you don't believe in God?"
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I'm sorry but that question was never asked. Belief in "God" isn't necessary to be a good person. Additionally belief in "God" isn't necessary to believe that objective moral values and duties exist.
 
RDM said:
Haven't you been arguing that it is? That objective moral values could not exist without God?
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I have been suggesting that the existence of God is required, not belief in God.

There are many people who believe that objective moral values and duties exist regardless of their position on the existence of God.
 
ringo747 said:
I have been suggesting that the existence of God is required, not belief in God.

There are many people who believe that objective moral values and duties exist regardless of their position on the existence of God.
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So you are basically saying they are wrong to do so?
 
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