Need for insurance, mot or tax on a private road?

[Gribs]

That sounds completely wrong. An unadopted private road is still one to which the public would expect access (same as for supermarket car parks) so is therefore subject to the normal traffic rules.

There'd be no reason for the public to access it as it's a dead end and it's just a dirt track off an old cobbled road. The only reason to drive up it would be to park outside a house but there's plenty of room at the end so people don't tend to. The DVLA accepted it so it must be ok.

https://maps.google.co.uk/maps?hl=e...=jXLZXz0dAO06EIRM_07Fhg&cbp=12,82.84,,0,19.87

 

[Hades]

Forgive me if i am incorrect here as i am not as frequent here as i used to be, but aren't you in the police force?

I have noticed that you regularly get involved in legal threads such as this, yet never actually quote any case law as Mr Fett has above. Rather you often seem to post your opinion on what the law may be. Its a little worrying in that (as in this case) you are sometimes posting incorrect advice.

Burnsey's advice seems perfectly sound to me. I live on an unadopted private road and fully expect that an uninsured or untaxed vehicle would get me in hot water. There may be technicalities when in court on what constitutes a public road and it is quite right that a court decides on these matters. But in general I would usually expect the RTA to apply.

Assuming Burnsey is in the police force then again he's not there to decide on the guilt or otherwise of someone. The police put people in front of courts when they believe an offence has been committed, who then decide whether the law has been breached. Therefore a police officer will have a good general knowledge of the law but there will always be small points that the courts will disagree on. Indeed, not all judges agree on the same points of law, hence the appeal process and case law. I find his legal advice on here far more accurate than most random posters with no connection to the law whatsoever (which includes me).

 

[PMKeates]

Assuming Burnsey is in the police force then again he's not there to decide on the guilt or otherwise of someone. The police put people in front of courts when they believe an offence has been committed, who then decide whether the law has been breached. Therefore a police officer will have a good general knowledge of the law but there will always be small points that the courts will disagree on. Indeed, not all judges agree on the same points of law, hence the appeal process and case law. I find his legal advice on here far more accurate than most random posters with no connection to the law whatsoever (which includes me).

That's fine if said police officer doesn't parade around as if they're the divine central authority on English law.

 

[Spartacus]

If the public can access it, i.e. not access controlled via a gate or otherwise, you are subject to RTA requirements.

Changing gears slightly, Where do you stand insurance wise if someone hits your car on a private drive or road with no gate or otherwise so anyone can access it?

Cheers

 

[Burnsy2023]

Forgive me if i am incorrect here as i am not as frequent here as i used to be, but aren't you in the police force?

I have noticed that you regularly get involved in legal threads such as this, yet never actually quote any case law as Mr Fett has above. Rather you often seem to post your opinion on what the law may be. Its a little worrying in that (as in this case) you are sometimes posting incorrect advice.

My advice isn't wrong. It's a good rule of thumb, but case law will always mean there are certain exceptions to a general rule. What I'm giving is general advice to avoid having to trawl PNLD for a over complex post on every possible exception to the rule. I don't profess to be an expert on everything, but I do have a usually pretty good working knowledge.

I believe he is a police volunteer who does a few hours a week etc.
Whats your day job burnsy, something in IT isn't it going by other threads?

It's a bit more than a few hours a week (I've worked 21 hours in the last 2 days), but essentially you are correct.

Burnsey's advice seems perfectly sound to me. I live on an unadopted private road and fully expect that an uninsured or untaxed vehicle would get me in hot water. There may be technicalities when in court on what constitutes a public road and it is quite right that a court decides on these matters. But in general I would usually expect the RTA to apply.

Assuming Burnsey is in the police force then again he's not there to decide on the guilt or otherwise of someone. The police put people in front of courts when they believe an offence has been committed, who then decide whether the law has been breached. Therefore a police officer will have a good general knowledge of the law but there will always be small points that the courts will disagree on. Indeed, not all judges agree on the same points of law, hence the appeal process and case law. I find his legal advice on here far more accurate than most random posters with no connection to the law whatsoever (which includes me).

Well put and thank your very much

That's fine if said police officer doesn't parade around as if they're the divine central authority on English law.

I can only laugh at that.

 

[Burnsy2023]

Changing gears slightly, Where do you stand insurance wise if someone hits your car on a private drive or road with no gate or otherwise so anyone can access it?

Cheers

If it's a public highway, and we've established that this definition is sometimes complex, then it's the same as anywhere else. If it's not, you may still be able to claim through insurance, but it depends on the circumstances. The vast majority of unadopted private roads are still public highways like most roads.

 

[Spartacus]

If it's a public highway, and we've established that this definition is sometimes complex, then it's the same as anywhere else. If it's not, you may still be able to claim through insurance, but it depends on the circumstances. The vast majority of unadopted private roads are still public highways like most roads.

Its a long private driveway/road going through a private site I work on. It doesnt lead anywhere other than access to the site. Someone hit my wing mirror and failed to stop, so I chased after them, got out and had a few words. Luckily there was no damage, however I did remind them that technically it was a failure to stop which I could have reported. Am I right or didnt the law apply? Just curious.

Cheers

 

[Burnsy2023]

Its a long private driveway/road going through a private site I work on. It doesnt lead anywhere other than access to the site. Someone hit my wing mirror and failed to stop, so I chased after them, got out and had a few words. Luckily there was no damage, however I did remind them that technically it was a failure to stop which I could have reported. Am I right or didnt the law apply? Just curious.

Cheers

It's difficult to say from just a description. Got a Google maps pic?

 

[Spartacus]

No but its privately owned land and its a complete dead end at the other end of the site. i.e there is no access to anywhere other that the companys site.

Cheers

 

[Dr Who]

No but its privately owned land and its a complete dead end at the other end of the site. i.e there is no access to anywhere other that the companys site.

Cheers

Do customers use the road to access your site?

 

[Spartacus]

Do customers use the road to access your site?

Visitors use it.

 

[teaboy5]

It's a bit more than a few hours a week (I've worked 21 hours in the last 2 days), but essentially you are correct.

21 hours for free? Fair play. You must have a nice employer to allow that during the week? Or do you get time off?

 

[Burnsy2023]

21 hours for free? Fair play. You must have a nice employer to allow that during the week? Or do you get time off?

The last two days were a weekend

 

[teaboy5]

The last two days were a weekend

good point didn't catch that at all.

Do you have to get time off work if you need etc? This kind of thing interests me I must admit. But I don't believe the PSNI run a similar program.

 

[Burnsy2023]

good point didn't catch that at all.

Do you have to get time off work if you need etc? This kind of thing interests me I must admit. But I don't believe the PSNI run a similar program.

I don't usually get time off work and no the PSNI don't have a Special Constabulary due to the unique challenges NI has. Every force in the rest of the UK does though.

 

[Burnsy2023]

Its a long private driveway/road going through a private site I work on. It doesnt lead anywhere other than access to the site. Someone hit my wing mirror and failed to stop, so I chased after them, got out and had a few words. Luckily there was no damage, however I did remind them that technically it was a failure to stop which I could have reported. Am I right or didnt the law apply? Just curious.

Cheers

Visitors use it.

Since I'm being accused of not quoting enough law.

This would highly likely be classed as a public road. Cutter v Eagle Star 1998 and Clarke v Rugby 1998 both set out the criteria that specify what constitutes a road. The main issue here being the public access point.

The signage does have a bearing:

No, the road has to be privately owned. If the road is privately owned and clearly signed as such, unless you are there for “business or social purposes, or to visit a particular place” , then you would have an argument for it not being a public place.

If it's a signed, private road, but say, leads to a public beach, and the general public regularly use it to access the beach, then it's highly likely it will be defined as a public place...once that happens, you are subject to the RTA etc.

"Any road may be regarded as a road to which the public have access, upon which members of the public are to be found who have not obtained access either by overcoming a physical obstruction or in defiance of prohibition express or implied (e.g. 'private' notices at the entrance to a farm lane or a short driveway which obviously leads to a private family home. It is not possible to trespass on a road)."

If the signage suggests that the public or any section of the public can use the road for access Adams v Met police 1980, then it would be under RTA restrictions and obligations.

It's also important to note that myself and Fett are arguing different point. He is defining a public place, and I am defining a road. The RTA usually specifies both, so an offence can be committed on a road or public place. This doesn't apply to all RTA offences though, some are just public places, but for this scenario, failure to stop is applicable to a road.

 

[Burnsy2023]

In a nutshell, unless the general public have a reason or entitlement for access to a private road, it's likely not be construed as a public place.

I'd also argue that the times when the general public would not have entitlement to a road would be highly limited. Some relevant case law below:

R v DPP ex parte Taussik 2000. A cul-de-sac leading to a council block of flats with a sign saying 'Private Residents Only' was not a public place BECAUSE the police evidence of public usage was insufficient to show it was being used as a public place. Firmer evidence may have clarified the matter in the favour of the prosecution.

Dunne v Keane 1976. When considering the driveway from a road to a hotel, it was said that a place may be a public place even if there is a right to exclude certain members of the public.

R v Waters (John James) 1963 A man was found intoxicated with alcohol laying beside his van in an hotel carpark. It was used routinely as a lay-by by passers-by and was not fenced off from the main road. The defence argued that certain members of the public (coaches & lorries) were denied access thus making it private. However the court decided that, even if this did happen at certain times of the day, there would have to be more physical evidence of certain people being excluded before it could consider that the car park had become private. The landlord visiting the car park and asking people to leave was not sufficient evidence to support the notion of it being private.

 

[UnderclockedALot]

Signs present on the road were "Private Road, Residents and Authorised Vehicles only" and "Private Road, No Parking".

Lord Justice Pill gave consideration to the question of whether there had been any evidence of public usage. He found that the evidence in the case was "wholly insufficient to entitle a court to conclude that the causeway was a public place"

"There is no evidence of any general public access to the island for any purpose. If, for example, there had been evidence of a viewpoint on the island from which there was a beautiful view of the sunrise, and evidence of use by the public of the causeway to obtain access to the island to enjoy the view, that would be evidence material for present purposes"

http://www.mibclaim.co.uk/resources/library/cases/planton-director-public-prosecutions-2002/

In a nutshell, unless the general public have a reason or entitlement for access to a private road, it's likely not be construed as a public place.

So I'm living in a small cul de sac, a marked private road with no barrier to enter, nor any reason for the public to visit. I have an old car laid up, sorned and parked in guest parking - I use it purely for taking the kids camping etc. I was planning to get the MOT and road tax sorted this week. A letter just dropped through the door, I've been reported by an NSL luton van (I checked it on CCTV) and have a penalty for an untaxed vechicle. A £315 fine.

But do you know what, I'm not even that worried about the fine anymore. I'm just rather pleased to have googled the problem and stumbled over your reply Fett - I'm seriously damn pleased to see you're still around mate.

Yours, Dave.

 

[Nasher]

I think you should have insurance (because someone can still crash in to it) but you dont need tax or MOT.

 

[[TW]Fox]

Read the road traffic act as it does spell it out. You will note that the terminology used to describe a road differs for insurance, which implies that even if it's private if the public have access you require insurance.