Well this is another pointless circular debate as usual...... but what the hell, work is slow at the moment !!!....
Have to say guys I follow and had similar understanding to Spoffie ..... What goes down a “digital” cable is actual an analogue voltage pulse.
Ideally a square ware form I believe... working between 0V and +V at a given frequency. Believe the shape and timing of that voltage square pulse is where the “digital” signal can be effected. You have the transient response or rise time of the wave form, how quick it goes from zero to Plus. So you don’t end up with a perfect square, but more of a truncated pyramid.
It was also explained to me once (guy was working in military stuff) that if you take a straight network (cat5) cable put a signal/pulse down it and watch on a scope as you kinked the cable you could see a reflection of the signal back off the kink on the scope.
Seems to me even digital cable design could be important in SOME situations......
Thank you, I appreciate a bit of backup here instead of the barrage by two people trying to educate me on a subject that they don't even understand.
Yeah, basically a digital signal is a square waveform (in theory), and you're quite right that it'll often be a truncated pyramid because of slight voltage variations.
This is where the digital bit comes in, the values read on the other end, whatever is decoding the digital signal, will only ever read the waveform peaks as either 1 or 0, which means you can technically get away with some variation, as long as the signal is read as a 1 or 0 it'll come through without degradation (though error correction comes in to work with degradation).
Where an analog signal's peaks represent different values within a range, so can be more susceptible to interference, and any variations can lead to degradation.
Digital cable design is of course important, it's just less prone to issues with the waveform going out of shape.
Now the key point is I guess how important could these issues be, either analogue or digital domain... Does the sender and receiver of the signal reject or is immune to the errors or degradation that can occur. Largely I would expect the answer to that question to be yes...that is where well designed components show their worth as they are more robust and fault tolerant, makes cables, connectors etc to have little or no effect.... hence the miss used phrase “it’s all digital and 1 and zeros”.
This is the difference between analog and digital. An analog signal will be read as it is, even if it's distorted, which is interesting as that's how the guitar effect, distortion came about.
It was originally an unwanted side effect of pushing a signal too hard through the amp, so the analog waveform was clipped, this the distorted guitar sound effect.
A digital signal should have error correction when it's decoded to try to fix any errors or misreads from the waveform (reading a 0 as a 1, for example).
So yes, you are quite right in thinking that a digital system is more robust and fault tolerant.
That said, I do believe I’ve heard and it can be heard that different design and constructed analogue cables have an effect of the sound heard. Often subtle, but for whatever reason, ie change of electrical properties and values a change is heard.
Another miss used expression, a cable “improves” the sound.... No, not possible, all you can ever do is degrade less. What you start with is the best it can be, it will only ever degrade to greater or lesser amount as it passes through the system. .... So it’s not a better cable, it’s a “less degrading cable”.... semantics maybe, but changes how you view the issue perhaps....
Well that's what I've been arguing, people like to claim their magic cables increase sound quality, but generally if there is a difference in sound, it would be due to the cable being inadequate for the job.
The claims like "greater sound stage" or "more airy sound" is just rubbish.
But stuff like this, it only goes to show that getting an adequate cable is important, rather than buying in to expensive cables and interconnects.
As long as the cable you use is of a sufficient gauge to carry the signal without degrading it, then you'll get the best sound you can.
Which is why a lot of people use things like mains cable, as it's nice thick copper that's dirt cheap, or things like braided network cables, as the braiding can help with interference, and it's also dirt cheap too.
Then we get to the mathematicians and statisticians, who want a 100 sample trial and achieve better than 80% success rate etc. Well you can give on that one before your start. Listen to any piece of music more than a few times and your brain switches off.... it’s heard it before doesn’t register changes, it’s been imprinted. Plus you get fatigued after a few repeats, and you just hear a wall of sound where everything sounds the same. It’s a flaw test approach in my view, we are humans not computers our responses are not linear. AAB and using something new not heard before can often be more revealing. Plus change to different track regularly.
Personally, I don't tend to get fatigued by listening to the same piece of music over and over again if it's one I really like.
I often find it difficult to listen to music if I'm doing anything else as I tend to get very engrossed in the music, If I'm trying to do something else at the same time, I'll sometimes hear it as a wall of sound.
I do tend to hear any changes in a track too, like if I've changed speakers or headphones, I can distinctly tell the differences, things like a different set of speakers or headphones being slightly different with different frequencies, is something I pick up on.
I tend to only really listen to instrumental music too, I find it a lot easier and more enjoyable to listen to.
So before people dismiss out of hand, based on internet hearsay and armchair experts, I would as others have suggested, take the time to see if cables, connectors or anything else has an effect for you......... If you’re a casual iPod listener then I doubt you’ll gain anything.... take the time to listen on a regular basis to a decent system well set up, then perhaps, maybe you might just hear what some people are saying.
Well I've had a lot of interest in this sort of subject over the years, and it seems to be a general consensus from electrical engineers that cables do not change the tonality of sound (which loads of people DO claim), but rather as you've said, inadequate cables will degrade the sound below the point of what a speaker is capable of.
Which brings me back to the point about magical cables and interconnects, the claims made about them are simply not true, and when people talk about a change in sound quality, if there is a change it's always due to them using bad cables.
Which leads me on to another point, that I am convinced that "high end" cable manufacturers put a lot of effort in to making sure their cheapest cables actually do degrade sound so that there is a difference, but that believers in magic cables see it as the more expensive cables producing better quality sound.
How the sound gets to the speaker is basic physics as stuie says
Of course all this does leave the door open for less honourable types to pray on people and make “me too products” which are no more than snake oil and rely on placebo effect, which for sure does happen...... It’s trying to work out the snakes from the ladders that makes it tricky.....and perhaps part of the enjoyment of the hobby..... Because that’s what it is, a hobby, an interest in the way we enjoy the pleasure of music............ however you choose.
This point seems to address about 99% of the branded cable industry really.
lol loving this.
Sorry guys but im with spoffle here. An analogue signal from an amp to a speaker is nothing more than a positive to negative wave form at frequency x measured in hz thats how a speaker works send a 100hz wave at a speaker and it moves at 100hz. Its an electrical current nothing more or less a cable that is able to transmit that current over the required distance will always sound the same because copper silver or any other type of cable cannot change a frequency. What a cable can do is create resistance too much resistance for x amps over x length will cause a lack of power to get to said speaker. Ill let that sink in. Power. not frequency, it wont introduce any form of clipping it wont introduce an rounder more tonal or plump sound not one thing.
However if you are using inadequate cabling you will get less power, in this instance wpc, less wpc and the speaker will struggle to sound like it should. The only reason silver cable would cause an improvement in sound is due to resistance. Silver is a less restrictive metal than copper so if you are using cable that is too small for the job the in theory silver will sound better due to more wpc being delivered to the speaker due to resistance.
Simply put yes a silver cable can sound better size for size if the copper cable isnt adequate for the power over distance of the amp and speakers. It will not however effect the sound of the speaker other than feeding it more power. Use good 12 gauge or greater copper cable and id be willing to bet you wouldnt hear any difference at all
Im not an electrical engineer i am however an it engineer with a resonable grasp of electronics and a very high end audio enthusiast who has spent years tinkering and researching with high end car and home audio system and have tried and tested most types of cables and interconnects looking for that perfect sound
Exactly! You're not an electrical engineer, yet you have a better grasp of electronics than nick1881 who claims to be one.
Not that I actually believe him though, as an electrical engineer wouldn't have made the type of posts he's made in here.
Basically it's "I know I'm an electrical engineer based on your posts".
