Valve sued (in Germany) for not allowing Steam users to resell games

[Jokester]

Nooooo the person may never have had any intention to play it at the full price might have only been the cheaper price they decided to give it a bash.

This is exactly the same as the huge Pirate DL=1 lost sale discussion that the industry is oh so fond of bleeting about.

And no its not £30 gone from the publisher

But previously, you could pick up a cheap game in Steam sales if you wanted to play it whilst not paying full price or whatever, so the developer was still getting cash. That goes out the window now, a 2nd hand market will always be cheaper than the original developer.

 

[chris-82]

Think about it Fox, Why would someone buy a new copy of Farcry 3, when they can buy a used one for cheaper? Therefore that's £30 (for example) gone from the publisher.

A digital copy of a game does not degrade over time, unlike your favourite example: Cars, so there is no reason to sell them much cheaper, just need to undercut the retailer by a fiver and that's it, sold.

With regards to graphics cards, they get surpassed by newer models and this leads to a new arguement in my favour, Nvidia, Ford and Intel for example are always churning out new versions of their products far more often and getting a constant income from the new products, game developers don't release new games as often and (as with most entertainment) once an idea is done, it's done, not the same as tecnhology where new technology will almost always be better than the old one.

Also shall we move on to reselling MP3s we don't use now? How are companies going to trust that we deleted it from our own devices and not just kept it (therefore increasing piracy) and yes this is also a valid point for computer games too.

Your arguement is flawed from every angle. Try again, and I know you love them, but don't use cars as an example.

Once an idea is done its done!! Really well I'm pretty sure I've seen a lot more than one fps,rpg and so on I suggest u phone the cod franchise and let them know!! do i still pay full price for the same ideas yes so who is ripping off who........

As for cars how quickly do u think for redesign a car and release it not as quickly as some games I can tell you so that example is yet again wrong.every game that comes out in most cases is better product than the lasst be it in gameplay or graphics so whats your point its the same.

Yes why not sell mp3's how would they do it hmmmmmm let me think I don't care it's there responsebility to follow the law that is put in place aka my consumer rights

Your points are also flawed
i Don't get people rallying for us to lose our rights I love steam but I own what I pay for simple.

 

[~Divine~Wind~]

But previously, you could pick up a cheap game in Steam sales if you wanted to play it whilst not paying full price or whatever, so the developer was still getting cash. That goes out the window now, a 2nd hand market will always be cheaper than the original developer.

Not necessarily, 2 sided sword ...
Bought a game full price, steam has it at 75% off now

 

[mmj_uk]

Wait if this happens, then there is absolutely nothing stopping retailers like Steam simply charging full price for pre owned keys, and nobody could do anything about it because I've lost count of the amount of times I've seen pre owned games that haven't been out long matching the price of the brand new counterparts. Steam could easily resell your Skyrim key for £19.99 for example.

The damage may not be as catastrophic afterall, if this goes through that is.

Valve shouldn't be able to dictate who you sell the game to in a free market, once you buy a game/license you should be free to sell it to whoever you choose at whatever price you choose... it's a basic consumer right.

Here is a bit of the press release:

Full purchase price and only half the ownership?

For consumers, the difference of use between game software as opposed to board or card games are incomprehensible. For both, the consumer pays the full purchase price. As the owner of a board game he can give it away, sell it easily or allow others the right to use it. These possibilities are often denied for game software. Technical hurdles, the prohibition of transfer and prevention of sale hinder the purchaser of a game software to proceed using his property as he wishes.

ECJ ruling strengthens the rights of consumers

In the opinion of the VZBV, Valve undermines the acquired consumer ownership rights by prohibiting the transfer of the account. While the Bundesgerichtshof (BGH) ruled in an action brought by the VZBV before the court in early 2010 that it was permissible that an account required to use a software product is not transferable. Due to the judgment of the ECJ, which affirmed the resale of used software, the VZBV now sees an approach by the courts and possibly the BGH, to reassess the situation. Thus, the consumer rights would also be strengthened in the online games market.

 

[Strife212]

I can't see how this would work without killing the industry

Same way that the car industry isn't killed by second hand car sales?

Also shall we move on to reselling MP3s we don't use now? How are companies going to trust that we deleted it from our own devices and not just kept it (therefore increasing piracy) and yes this is also a valid point for computer games too.

Since the topic at hand is Steam, very easily. A game revoked on steam can't be played anymore.

Think about it Fox, Why would someone buy a new copy of Farcry 3, when they can buy a used one for cheaper? Therefore that's £30 (for example) gone from the publisher.

There aren't unlimited used copies of the game. Every used copy had to be new once.

 

[Wh00pS]

One thing that does bug me about this thread is that a lot of people are posting that they dont support this court case because the developer will be losing out on revenue.
Many of the same posters (who are so concerned about the developers revenue) actively and openly seek out dodgy russian or polish etc. key sites to buy games at vastly lower cost to themselves.
The developers of the games receive a far lower cut from these sales but the people here buying the keys don't seem too bothered now as they have extra money in their wallets.
Bit hypocrytical i would say.

 

[[TW]Fox]

Think about it Fox, Why would someone buy a new copy of Farcry 3, when they can buy a used one for cheaper?

They wouldnt be able to buy a used copy if nobody bought a new one. And why doesn't anyone who wants Far Cry 3 on PS3 not just go and buy an immaculate preowned one instead, for example?

I have a physical retail boxed new copy of Far Cry 3 despite the easily available CD keys for sale on this forum forums Members Market, so clearly people would still buy them. I did!

A digital copy of a game does not degrade over time, unlike your favourite example:

And also unlike physical games not owned by chimps. None of my games have degraded. I keep them in the box and don't scratch them. I have boxes and boxes of mint condition PC Games, all of which work as well today as they did the day I bought them. Or at least they would do had the developers not superceded them

With regards to graphics cards, they get surpassed by newer models and this leads to a new arguement in my favour, Nvidia, Ford and Intel for example are always churning out new versions of their products far more often and getting a constant income from the new products, game developers don't release new games as often and

You have to be joking right? We are talking about the games industry, yea? The one that tries hard to obselete every product it sells by releasing a new version every single year? Still playing Bad Company are you? Going to fire up a game of F1 2010 later are you?

 

[linktoinsanity]

You have to be joking right? We are talking about the games industry, yea? The one that tries hard to obselete every product it sells by releasing a new version every single year? Still playing Bad Company are you? Going to fire up a game of F1 2010 later are you?

Don't like either of those games or their sequels...but

I am still playing Red Alert 1 on occasion, however have not touched Tiberian Sun, or even RA2 for years.

I still play COD4 on occasion and have Black Ops, but none since.

Some of the older games are better, and COD (and now Battlefield it seems) are just rehashes of the same dribble. Actually read bad reviews of Fifa '13, because it is the same game as '12 in new skins apparently.

Games are not the same as technology. As Peggle for example is technologically inferior to Battlefield 3...ie simpler, yet people will enjoy playing it. Someone who owns a Geforce GTX680 is not going to go out and buy a Gerforce GTX570 are they?

 

[[TW]Fox]

How many people who bought Battlefield 3 have since popped out to grab a copy of Battlfield Vietnam?

That'll be none then.

If you still enjoy and get value from Cod4 then you wouldn't sell it. Which incidentally you could easily do right now if you wanted as its not a Steam game. Doesn't seem to have done much harm though eh...

 

[Gzero]

The relentless defending of drm and publishers in this thread is rather shocking. :/

Stop burying your heads in the ground and open your eyes to the recent trend:

CD Keys -> Online Authentication -> Account authentication (and Always online) -> DLC + other rubbish (season passes, multiplayer access, content already made but lets charge more for it to be tacked on).

And the next step would have been?

I see the ruling as a good thing for us gamers, and consumers. It means more money will be spent on the product rather than the hype/marketing machine (because you know, once they bought it, they are stuck with it right?).

 

[Gzero]

How many people who bought Battlefield 3 have since popped out to grab a copy of Battlfield Vietnam?

That'll be none then.

If you still enjoy and get value from Cod4 then you wouldn't sell it. Which incidentally you could easily do right now if you wanted as its not a Steam game. Doesn't seem to have done much harm though eh...

+1

If he bought Cod4 at launch he could easily have sold on his copy... his post doesn't seem to make any sense at all.

He refers to games he can still sell on. And then he states someone wouldn't downgrade from a GTX680 to a 570???

Games are not the same as technology. As Peggle for example is technologically inferior to Battlefield 3...ie simpler, yet people will enjoy playing it. Someone who owns a Geforce GTX680 is not going to go out and buy a Gerforce GTX570 are they?

Linktoinsanity, what are you trying to say with that statement which is purely circumstantial?
If you had bills to pay and your pc was increasing your electric bill and a friend offered to trade cards with you, would you not do that or would you rather be locked in because Microsoft/Nvidia/Steam say you are not allowed to make changes in ownership...

And before you say that isn't a related issue, it can be. Say you pre-ordered Heart of the Swarm, and it came out tomorrow, and the day after your bills came in higher than you could cover. Nope sorry, you can't sell that to make up for your mistake as it's locked to your account, you'll just have to go homeless, but on the bright side you still own that game you got to play for a short period

Also, some people buy retro games, and some people only buy recently released games. But there are people who buy old hardware or old consoles, so I still can't see how the point you are trying to make stands up?

Games are just another piece of entertainment/material wealth. Of course you should be able to sell on things you no longer want.

 

[Omaeka]

You should never be able to pick up cheap 'pre owned' digital copies though, Steam etc. games that are traded in should be put back into the mix of brand new copies and sold at full price.

Also people, stop ****ing comparing digital items to physical ones, the only reason cars etc. are cheaper second hand is because they degrade and have faults, how can you not see that? All comparisons of physical items you lot make, completely render your entire argument and all it's points invalid, so pack it in.

What complete Wombles we have here.

 

[smelly_legend]

Degradation has nothing to do with it IMO. For example, I could buy a music CD or a game in the past and back it up. If I sold it, the backup would be deleted.

The fact companies dress it up as if you are buying it is misleading.

To add, I bought a 2nd hand copy of Ableton Live. Ableton had no problems transferring the account to me.

If people want the game when it comes out, they will buy the game when it comes out.

 

[Omaeka]

If people want the game when it comes out, they will buy the game when it comes out.

Or wait a day for the 'pre owned' condition, digital copies.

PC Gaming isn't doing well at all, if you lot wanna smash the final nail in it's coffin don't moan when in 5 years your £1000 gaming rigs are nothing but paperweights with a few old games you don't wanna play anymore.

 

[smelly_legend]

Or wait a day for the 'pre owned' condition, digital copies.

PC Gaming isn't doing well at all, if you lot wanna smash the final nail in it's coffin don't moan when in 5 years your £1000 gaming rigs are nothing but paperweights with a few old games you don't wanna play anymore.

I'm not going to moan about anything.

and most games verge on playing multiplayer online. So I can't see people selling games unless they really don't like them or they are very old games.

Or companies should say we are renting/hiring - not buying.

 

[Omaeka]

Well I personally don't want it to turn into a platform with nothing but CoD 15 and Battlefield 5, and a few alright f2p games. I want games like Hitman, Skyrim and Devil May Cry.

Shame I'm the only one.

 

[linktoinsanity]

+1

If he bought Cod4 at launch he could easily have sold on his copy... his post doesn't seem to make any sense at all.

He refers to games he can still sell on. And then he states someone wouldn't downgrade from a GTX680 to a 570???

Linktoinsanity, what are you trying to say with that statement which is purely circumstantial?
If you had bills to pay and your pc was increasing your electric bill and a friend offered to trade cards with you, would you not do that or would you rather be locked in because Microsoft/Nvidia/Steam say you are not allowed to make changes in ownership...

And before you say that isn't a related issue, it can be. Say you pre-ordered Heart of the Swarm, and it came out tomorrow, and the day after your bills came in higher than you could cover. Nope sorry, you can't sell that to make up for your mistake as it's locked to your account, you'll just have to go homeless, but on the bright side you still own that game you got to play for a short period

Also, some people buy retro games, and some people only buy recently released games. But there are people who buy old hardware or old consoles, so I still can't see how the point you are trying to make stands up?

Games are just another piece of entertainment/material wealth. Of course you should be able to sell on things you no longer want.

I have actually given up trying to get my point accross. It's a mixture of bad examples from my part and the other side such as you intentionally misinterpreting what I'm saying, so whatever, enjoy the thread.

 

[smelly_legend]

Well I personally don't want it to turn into a platform with nothing but CoD 15 and Battlefield 5, and a few alright f2p games. I want games like Hitman, Skyrim and Devil May Cry.

Shame I'm the only one.

lol

Try not to put words in my mouth. I like Skyrim. Even if we could sell it 2nd hand, I wouldn't - still on my 3rd playthrough (something I would be able to do if I sold it)

Another point - offline game are far easier to pirate, no? Has that killed the PC release yet?

 

[[TW]Fox]

Also people, stop ****ing comparing digital items to physical ones,

No. Products are Products, regardless of publishers attempts to change the form they are delivered in for their own benefit. The law reflects this.

All comparisons of physical items you lot make, completely render your entire argument and all it's points invalid, so pack it in.

What complete Wombles we have here.

How about we restrict the examples to a physical product that doesn't degrade (Even though I disagree with your opinion that the only reason a used product costs less than a new one is because of degradation)? Like, I dunno... oh. non Steam PC games and Console Games.

Compact Discs and DVD's do not degrade unless you damage them. They are digital content delivered on a physical disc. You can freely resell them if you wish. Picking another game from my collection entirley at random.... here is Crysis Warhead. The box is pristine. The disc is unmarked. The manual unread. It is as new. It has not degraded. I can freely resell it if I want to.

Or wait a day for the 'pre owned' condition, digital copies.

Where will they all come from if it's a decent game everyone is enjoying playing?

As soon as you sell your copy, you can't play it anymore. If you are doing that after just a day then either you'd probably never had bought it in the first place had you read a review (We should ban reviews, they harm the industry!) or if it had any more than a day of replay value.

Frankly any publisher pushing out 40 quid games with less than a single day of play value in them deserve no sympathy from any of you and frankly you should relish changes that would penalise these publishers whilst rewarding the ones that actually invest in decent, quality games.

Think of all the genuinelly decent, high quality, fantastic games you've bought in the last few years. How many of you would actually want to get rid of them? A few, but very little, I'd imagine. People keep quality. People trade in stuff they lose interest in. Hold peoples interest with quality products and watch this whole thing become a complete non-issue.

 

[Doomedspeed]

Well I personally don't want it to turn into a platform with nothing but CoD 15 and Battlefield 5, and a few alright f2p games. I want games like Hitman, Skyrim and Devil May Cry.

Shame I'm the only one.

I agree with you, though i just want to add something:

Hitman Absolution = Hitman 5
Skyrim = Elder scrolls 5
DMC = Devil may Cry 5