Valve sued (in Germany) for not allowing Steam users to resell games

[Omaeka]

No. Products are Products, regardless of publishers attempts to change the form they are delivered in for their own benefit. The law reflects this.

In which case, digital products should not be sold at a discount because they are 'pre-owned'.

I disagree with your opinion that the only reason a used product costs less than a new one is because of degradation.

Dafudge? It's rubbish like this, which clouds some of your actual valid, decent points and views...

Compact Discs and DVD's do not degrade unless you damage them. They are digital content delivered on a physical disc. You can freely resell them if you wish. Picking another game from my collection entirley at random.... here is Crysis Warhead. The box is pristine. The disc is unmarked. The manual unread. It is as new. It has not degraded. I can freely resell it if I want to.

There is potential there to be damaged no matter how you look at it, you aren't an official body, and even if the game was mint and had pictures of it's mint condition, very few people are going to trust you on that completely. There is zero potential for any kind of hiccup or degradation in digital copies.

Where will they all come from if it's a decent game everyone is enjoying playing?

As soon as you sell your copy, you can't play it anymore. If you are doing that after just a day then either you'd probably never had bought it in the first place had you read a review (We should ban reviews, they harm the industry!) or if it had any more than a day of replay value.

Frankly any publisher pushing out 40 quid games with less than a single day of play value in them deserve no sympathy from any of you and frankly you should relish changes that would penalise these publishers whilst rewarding the ones that actually invest in decent, quality games.

I agree to a point, infact games should be sold based on the average amount of hours people would get out it, causing developers to add more content to increase playability and thus up the sale value.

Also yes, the developers who throw out crappy 5 hour games would deserve it, but that isn't what will happen. Many developers are going into PC platform half baked, due to the ease of piracy and how easily their products can be thrown around without them knowing, the only negative not ticked at the moment that would put a publisher/developer off ever bringing their product to PC is the fact they won't lose sales to pre-owned copies. Regardless of how confident they were in their product, it would put them off, fact.

Think of all the genuinelly decent, high quality, fantastic games you've bought in the last few years. How many of you would actually want to get rid of them? A few, but very little, I'd imagine. People keep quality. People trade in stuff they lose interest in. Hold peoples interest with quality products and watch this whole thing become a complete non-issue.

Maybe people on a PC Gaming dedicated forum yes, but the average person will not get hundreds of hours out of the great replayable games like we do, they'd play em, beat em after x amount of hours and get rid, which infects the market with tons of 'second hand' (complete joke btw) copies that rob the developers of a sale.

However, if as stated in one of my posts a few pages back, they gave you recompense dependant on how many hours you put into it with Steam tracking, and then sold your 'copy' (again, a joke) on at full price, it might not hit it so hard.

However, all of the 'ITS OUR RIGHTS!' Wombles out there won't settle for that, they'll want more money back and they'll want to be able to buy 'second hand' (JOKEEEEE) copies for less than full price.

I agree with you, though i just want to add something:

Hitman Absolution = Hitman 5
Skyrim = Elder scrolls 5
DMC = Devil may Cry 5

A pattern?

 

[Gzero]

Or wait a day for the 'pre owned' condition, digital copies.

PC Gaming isn't doing well at all, if you lot wanna smash the final nail in it's coffin don't moan when in 5 years your £1000 gaming rigs are nothing but paperweights with a few old games you don't wanna play anymore.

Or don't wait a day and buy it for the price in another country even cheaper than anywhere sells for pre owned?

I liked you cd key reseller thread.

But now you are saying we should all pay full price directly to the publisher?

Come on make your mind up.

 

[[TW]Fox]

In which case, digital products should not be sold at a discount because they are 'pre-owned'.

Supply and Demand will always ensure they get sold 'at a discount'. They won't sell for new price because you are buying from an individual not Steam itself. No discount, no sale. Supply and demand then sets the value of the used version.

Unless there is huge oversupply (Which would be difficult given every used copy requires a new copy first) then you'd probably find the likely pricepoint isn't THAT big a discount from the new price anyway. You only need to see some of the ridiculous prices people on Ebay pay for used things that DO degrade to see that in action.

The point the EU are making is that they feel its unlawful for a company to restrict what you can do after you've bought a product. I find it difficult to disagree with this stance, hence my view in this thread. On a totally person note I'm not bothered as I wouldnt want to sell my games anyway

Dafudge? It's rubbish like this, which clouds some of your actual valid, decent points and views...

It's really not rubbish though, is it? You are arguing that degredation is the ONLY thing which dictates the price of a used item. It is completely ignoring the fact that used items are by their nature more likely to be older products than those which are currently available new.

We'll stay away from cars and stick to games. I'd imagine a used copy of Forza Motorsport 3 on the Xbox 360 is worth perhaps 5 quid.

Is it worth £35 less than it was new because it has 'degraded'? No, because it likely hasn't degraded at all unless it's been damaged. It's worth nothing because it's an old game nobody wants.

There is potential there to be damaged no matter how you look at it, you aren't an official body, and even if the game was mint and had pictures of it's mint condition, very few people are going to trust you on that completely. There is zero potential for any kind of hiccup or degradation in digital copies.

This is true but I don't beleive it will make anything like the industry-destroying difference some in this thread think it will.

The physical side of games was just the distribution method. It's a digital product on a CD. Does CD work? Hurrah, digital product is flawless and non-degraded.

I agree to a point, infact games should be sold based on the average amount of hours people would get out it, causing developers to add more content to increase playability and thus up the sale value.

Also yes, the developers who throw out crappy 5 hour games would deserve it, but that isn't what will happen. Many developers are going into PC platform half baked, due to the ease of piracy and how easily their products can be thrown around without them knowing, the only negative not ticked at the moment that would put a publisher/developer off ever bringing their product to PC is the fact they won't lose sales to pre-owned copies. Regardless of how confident they were in their product, it would put them off, fact.

Are developers going into PC half backed because of piracy? I think its more because they can.

From a business perspective why spend four times the time developing a game twice as long and of twice the quality when you can simply trot out a rehash of last years game, add in a bunch of DAY ZERO UNMISSABLE DLC and flog it to 80% of the people who would have bought the better product?

It makes no business sense to invest in quality. You only need that one sale to each person. If they play it for 4 days and post OMFGZ IT SUXORZ who cares? They've bought it, they can't get rid of it, tough luck.

Maybe people on a PC Gaming dedicated forum yes, but the average person will not get hundreds of hours out of the great replayable games like we do, they'd play em, beat em after x amount of hours and get rid, which infects the market with tons of 'second hand' (complete joke btw) copies that rob the developers of a sale.

The average person isn't a PC gamer anyway. The average *gamer* already does exactly as you say. They buy full price console rehashes from Sainsburys, play them for a bit, and then trade them in. They've done this for 10 years.

However, if as stated in one of my posts a few pages back, they gave you recompense dependant on how many hours you put into it with Steam tracking, and then sold your 'copy' (again, a joke) on at full price, it might not hit it so hard.

This is in theory sensible but is contrary to the point the EU are making, therefore its unlikely to get implemented.

It'll either be 'Steam are right' and they can carry on, or 'No, the product has the same rights as any other product' and it'll stop. There won't be a middle ground. Steam currently enjoy the ability to lock a consumer into a purchase for ever in a way that pretty much no other organisation does. The EU doesn't like this.

 

[Wh00pS]

and they'll want to be able to buy 'second hand' (JOKEEEEE) copies for less than full price.

You mean like loads here buy from dodgy eastern european key sites thus robbing the developers and publishers of even more money.

 

[Omaeka]

Supply and Demand will always ensure they get sold 'at a discount'. They won't sell for new price because you are buying from an individual not Steam itself. No discount, no sale. Supply and demand then sets the value of the used version.

Unless there is huge oversupply (Which would be difficult given every used copy requires a new copy first) then you'd probably find the likely pricepoint isn't THAT big a discount from the new price anyway. You only need to see some of the ridiculous prices people on Ebay pay for used things that DO degrade to see that in action.

The point the EU are making is that they feel its unlawful for a company to restrict what you can do after you've bought a product. I find it difficult to disagree with this stance, hence my view in this thread. On a totally person note I'm not bothered as I wouldnt want to sell my games anyway

Still, it would be much, much better if they gave an initial refund period and a demo with every game released on Steam. Right now I'm 50/50 with the opinions in this tread due to personal experiences. Example, I could not demo Gothic 3 E.E which is a fantastic game, so I bought it for a fiver (not much, granted) and it turns out that it is unplayable on a 3570k and a HD7950, which is a joke. It isn't just an OCD case of shutting the game down at the first stutter either, as I fully wanted to experience the game but can't due to extremely poor performance. To add insult to injury, the community patch which is supposed to fix the game on modern hardware, when installed, conflicts with Steam and tries to tell me that I don't have enough RAM to run the game...

So what did I do? Went to Steam, explained that fully and requested a refund, and what did they say? Told me to **** right off.

That is something they should change first, as that is a much worse breach of our 'rights' than not being able to trade our games in. I was sold a faulty product that couldn't be repaired by any means and then told to **** off.

It's really not rubbish though, is it? You are arguing that degredation is the ONLY thing which dictates the price of a used item. It is completely ignoring the fact that used items are by their nature more likely to be older products than those which are currently available new.

We'll stay away from cars and stick to games. I'd imagine a used copy of Forza Motorsport 3 on the Xbox 360 is worth perhaps 5 quid.

Is it worth £35 less than it was new because it has 'degraded'? No, because it likely hasn't degraded at all unless it's been damaged. It's worth nothing because it's an old game nobody wants.

To be honest I didn't see that at first, good point. Although still with a lot of things degredation has 99% of the price inpact, such as a car. Although, the 'it's an old game nobody wants' point can simply be countered by the fact that old games are cheaper new. Look at Skyrim/Mass Effect 3 (great examples) they are a year old now and have halved in price on Steam and Origin. Call of Duty though... Bleurgh.

This is true but I don't beleive it will make anything like the industry-destroying difference some in this thread think it will.

I hope not.

The physical side of games was just the distribution method. It's a digital product on a CD. Does CD work? Hurrah, digital product is flawless and non-degraded.

It's not that black & white though. A damaged CD may install, but at the same time it may not read off the disc during play (for the consoles) and some people may prefer to simply play off the disc rather than install the game. So that's a big chunk of users screwed over.

Also, the slightest hairline fracture can destroy a CD's readability. A mint game may look mint, but can be completely faulty, I have a mint condition copy of Gran Turismo 4 for the PS2 that doesn't play 3 of the tracks, it instantly crashes on load up. So that's all of the users screwed over.

Are developers going into PC half backed because of piracy? I think its more because they can.

From a business perspective why spend four times the time developing a game twice as long and of twice the quality when you can simply trot out a rehash of last years game, add in a bunch of DAY ZERO UNMISSABLE DLC and flog it to 80% of the people who would have bought the better product?

It makes no business sense to invest in quality. You only need that one sale to each person. If they play it for 4 days and post OMFGZ IT SUXORZ who cares? They've bought it, they can't get rid of it, tough luck.

I did agree with this in the past post . In a perfect world we should be able to implement certain things which forces to developers to give us a better product, but that isn't what I personally believe will happen, developers will stop supporting our platform more and more, as most are hanging by a thread as it is.

The average person isn't a PC gamer anyway. The average *gamer* already does exactly as you say. They buy full price console rehashes from Sainsburys, play them for a bit, and then trade them in. They've done this for 10 years.

Yeah, but you'd be surprised how many people don't bother to do this, at least not on PC. More modern games can't be done either due to CD-keys. Very few retailers will accept a used PC game.

This is in theory sensible but is contrary to the point the EU are making, therefore its unlikely to get implemented.

It'll either be 'Steam are right' and they can carry on, or 'No, the product has the same rights as any other product' and it'll stop. There won't be a middle ground.

Tbh, just for the sake of stopping the 'no' outcome, It'd be nice if Steam really improved on the quality of the service they give; i.e demos, initial refunds and time-tracked cashbacks. I think something like that would make everything go away.

You mean like loads here buy from dodgy eastern european key sites thus robbing the developers and publishers of even more money.

Rubbish.

1.) If you buy a Russian CD Key (which is in our rights, as it's stupid to charge different prices per country when it comes to digital goods), nobody loses a sale. That's like saying that for every Russian gamer, the developers lose money...

2.) Most CD-key sites cause retailers to lose money, how much of a sale do you think Valve get on Steam? It's at least half. If you buy a CD-key, that key was already purchased and the developers have gotten their share, and now the site which sold it to you has taken the cut the retailers would usually take.

Do you think all the grey market CD-keys are stolen from boxed copies from the back of a truck by some ******?

The CD-key business is there, and will never be shut down, because it isn't illegal and the sites who sell them go through the same lines as a certified publisher, only they are on a much smaller scale and take much less from each sale, thus the lower prices. Nobody is being ****ed over in the process, you cleary have no idea how the CD-key market works.

 

[QlimaxUK]

I agree with you, though i just want to add something:

Hitman Absolution = Hitman 5
Skyrim = Elder scrolls 5
DMC = Devil may Cry 5

Im waiting for GTA 5

 

[Evilsod]

How else would you classify degradation of a game?
A tear in the manual?
A smashed box?
A scratched Disc?

Would they prevent you from playing the game?
No all you need to do is put the serial key into steam, you know the serial key/license that you purchased and may like to have the ability to sell.

Things missing from a game after its been released, then its certainly not the same as when it was new is it? someone may still fancy playing the single player part of the game

Oh hang on lets sell the physical game we bought....
er no thats not allowed, steam has the license linked to your account.

The whole Physical V digital doesn't really work at times as even if you buy a physical game it's steamworks. So not only are steam restricting you from selling a digital license they are also restricting you from selling on physical good also. I quite like steam and would class myself as a fan but I really don't understand some of the "defend steam to the hilt" comments.

How are they restricting you selling on the physical goods? If you really want to sell your manual and box fair enough. The game has ALWAYS been digital even if the physical media is what allowed you to play it (if for no better reason than to enforce a CD check). The only real change is that the digital distribution is now possible. A disc can become damaged or lost, you aren't going to misplace your HDD or your steam account. You wouldn't go to the shop and pick up a preowned DVD if the disc was covered in scratches, nor would you buy a preowned game if it was the same condition because it might not work at all.

If digital second hand games become wide spread you may as well kiss goodbye to reasonably priced games.

There are multiple games available from many places that you can purchase that would be of absolutely no use because the servers were shut down.

That really is an entirely different can of worms...

 

[chris-82]

Or wait a day for the 'pre owned' condition, digital copies.

PC Gaming isn't doing well at all, if you lot wanna smash the final nail in it's coffin don't moan when in 5 years your £1000 gaming rigs are nothing but paperweights with a few old games you don't wanna play anymore.

Or a a steam sale comes along and knocks off 75% which would be less than a second hand copy would be (I imagine).
I don't see people screaming steam sales are killing the industry nope jut happy people with cheap games untill steam is questioned about legality of owning games your all conveniently ignoring that steam frequently gives bigger discounts on games than 2nd hand copies probably would.

I just watched gabe doing a hour speech and in it he actually said when you buy a game and own it you want this ... Blah blah and it was regarding steam whilst talking about this.

Personally it's just simple law that I own something I buy and I think it's criminal that they have got away with it for so long.
Would I sell my games probably not but its my RIGHT to do so if I wish and that's the point.

 

[Omaeka]

Or a a steam sale comes along and knocks off 75% which would be less than a second hand copy would be (I imagine).
I don't see people screaming steam sales are killing the industry nope jut happy people with cheap games untill steam is questioned about legality of owning games your all conveniently ignoring that steam frequently gives bigger discounts on games than 2nd hand copies probably would.

Completely wrong. Steam sales and sales in general not only breathe life into old franchises/titles that nobody plays anymore if they go on sale, but also make much more money for everyone involved than if they weren't.

New titles: 10 people buying your game for £30 = £300.

100 people buying your game for £15 = £1,500.

Old/dead titles: 1 person buying your game in a 7 day period for £9.99 = £9.99

1000+ buying your game for £3.74 while on sale = lots + exposure for your future sequels, and for your company as a whole if you are small/indie.

That and the fact they actually profit from a game on sale, whereas a preowned game, nobody profits but the retailer. If a game is on sale and sells for 20p, the developer and publisher still get something, a second-hand copy for 20p, the retailer gets 20p, dev/pub nothing. End of.

Personally it's just simple law that I own something I buy and I think it's criminal that they have got away with it for so long.
Would I sell my games probably not but its my RIGHT to do so if I wish.

You don't own your games on Steam.

 

[~Divine~Wind~]

You should never be able to pick up cheap 'pre owned' digital copies though, Steam etc. games that are traded in should be put back into the mix of brand new copies and sold at full price.

Also people, stop ****ing comparing digital items to physical ones, the only reason cars etc. are cheaper second hand is because they degrade and have faults, how can you not see that? All comparisons of physical items you lot make, completely render your entire argument and all it's points invalid, so pack it in.

What complete Wombles we have here.

Digital v physical is kinda the same with steam tho.
If its a steamwork title then even tho you bought a phsyical item you still can't sell it

Or wait a day for the 'pre owned' condition, digital copies.

PC Gaming isn't doing well at all, if you lot wanna smash the final nail in it's coffin don't moan when in 5 years your £1000 gaming rigs are nothing but paperweights with a few old games you don't wanna play anymore.

If you think PC gaming isn't doing well and the publishers should be given more money then why do you constantly seem to be buying games for the cheapest possible price you can from the grey market?

lol

Try not to put words in my mouth. I like Skyrim. Even if we could sell it 2nd hand, I wouldn't - still on my 3rd playthrough (something I would be able to do if I sold it)

Another point - offline game are far easier to pirate, no? Has that killed the PC release yet?

Exactly a lott seem to think that this means everyone will instantly sell on their entire steam catalog and destroy the market. I really don't think that is the case.

 

[~Divine~Wind~]

You don't own your games on Steam.

No you own a software license that allows you to play the game.
But steam are restricting you from passing it on.

Can i sell my old copies of windows? Yes
Can I sell my old copies of office? Yes
Can I sell my old Games? No

The OS and Office examples I am giving is due to us paying for a "license to use" rather than the software itself

 

[Omaeka]

Digital v physical is kinda the same with steam tho.
If its a steamwork title then even tho you bought a phsyical item you still can't sell it

Technicality.

Physical copies are only there for the same reason that Far Cry 3 and Assassin's Creed 3 didnt' hit Steam for ages; the physical retailers being cry babies.

If you think PC gaming isn't doing well and the publishers should be given more money then why do you constantly seem to be buying games for the cheapest possible price you can from the grey market?

Because me buying from the grey market takes money from the retailers, nobody else. Developers still get a cut from a CD-key being sold, as they were bought in the first place. The only people losing out are the CD-key sites themselves as they could by rights sell them for the same price as official retailers but don't due to the fact it's a few guys legally conducting business and thus don't need such a big profit per unit.

Honestly mate, this whole 'the greymarket is robbing the creators' is getting really old.

No you own a software license that allows you to play the game.
But steam are restricting you from passing it on.

Can i sell my old copies of windows? Yes
Can I sell my old copies of office? Yes
Can I sell my old Games? No

The OS and Office examples I am giving is due to us paying for a "license to use" rather than the software itself

Something in of itself which I disagree with also, don't get me wrong I'd love to flog a few of my dead games in my Steam library (only because the creators are useless and they don't work mind you!), but from my point of view, digital goods should never be sold on, it's stupid, you aren't even selling anything except an 'okay' from the creator.

 

[Wh00pS]

Rubbish.

1.) If you buy a Russian CD Key (which is in our rights, as it's stupid to charge different prices per country when it comes to digital goods), nobody loses a sale. That's like saying that for every Russian gamer, the developers lose money...

2.) Most CD-key sites cause retailers to lose money, how much of a sale do you think Valve get on Steam? It's at least half. If you buy a CD-key, that key was already purchased and the developers have gotten their share, and now the site which sold it to you has taken the cut the retailers would usually take.

Do you think all the grey market CD-keys are stolen from boxed copies from the back of a truck by some ******?

The CD-key business is there, and will never be shut down, because it isn't illegal and the sites who sell them go through the same lines as a certified publisher, only they are on a much smaller scale and take much less from each sale, thus the lower prices. Nobody is being ****ed over in the process, you cleary have no idea how the CD-key market works.

Firstly the keys from the eastern european sites are cheaper there due to the average income in said countries being drasticly lower than others so developers/publishers sell there at a reduced profit.
All other manufacturers do the exact same for example ford, samsung, macdonalds all sell in the same countries at reduced rates.

Also it is illegal, read the terms of the game your buying, why do you think you have to use a vpn just to buy half of them?
As for no one getting ****ed over, the developers/publishers are getting a reduced profit (hence less money being plowed back into developing new titles) and retailers here in the UK are losing sales as well and we all know they are doing so well arn't they.

 

[~Divine~Wind~]

How are they restricting you selling on the physical goods? If you really want to sell your manual and box fair enough. The game has ALWAYS been digital even if the physical media is what allowed you to play it (if for no better reason than to enforce a CD check). The only real change is that the digital distribution is now possible. A disc can become damaged or lost, you aren't going to misplace your HDD or your steam account. You wouldn't go to the shop and pick up a preowned DVD if the disc was covered in scratches, nor would you buy a preowned game if it was the same condition because it might not work at all.

If digital second hand games become wide spread you may as well kiss goodbye to reasonably priced games.

That really is an entirely different can of worms...

Who would buy the physical goods? They've degraded to a point where the actual game itself (the main product) is unuseable.

The 2nd hand console market seems to have somewhat survived, I can remember purchasing 2nd hand SNES games.

As for the removal of servers, that was in response to an earlier post.

Technicality.

Physical copies are only there for the same reason that Far Cry 3 and Assassin's Creed 3 didnt' hit Steam for ages; the retailers being cry babies.

Because me buying from the grey market takes money from the retailers, nobody else. Developers still get a cut from a CD-key being sold, as they were bought in the first place. The only people losing out are the CD-key sites themselves as they could by rights sell them for the same price as official retailers but don't due to the fact it's a few guys legally conducting business and thus don't need such a big profit per unit.

Honestly mate, this whole 'the greymarket is robbing the creators' is getting really old.

Were the retail stores "being babies" or were they wanting a fair chance to make some sales without any one store/system monopolising?

I'm all for CD key sites mate, never said different to that but I buy knowing the publishers aren't getting what they should, even more so when you have to use a VPN and stuff to activate or purchase a game. They are different prices in different territories for a reason, try selling a game for what £39.99 in lets say erm Africa? Surely out there £40 is a lot more to them than us due to the cost of living, lifestyle and pay.

Something in of itself which I disagree with also, don't get me wrong I'd love to flog a few of my dead games in my Steam library (only because the creators are useless and they don't work mind you!), but from my point of view, digital goods should never be sold on, it's stupid, you aren't even selling anything except an 'okay' from the creator.

You are selling on a digital software license. not the software itself.
the RIGHT to use the software as intended.

 

[Omaeka]

Firstly the keys from the eastern european sites are cheaper there due to the average income in said countries being drasticly lower than others so developers/publishers sell there at a reduced profit.
All other manufacturers do the exact same for example ford, samsung, macdonalds all sell in the same countries at reduced rates.

Wrong. The creators charge the same, and the distributors get charged by the creators. The price of each unit is at the distributors transgression

Also it is illegal, read the terms of the game your buying, why do you think you have to use a vpn just to buy half of them?
As for no one getting ****ed over, the developers/publishers are getting a reduced profit (hence less money being plowed back into developing new titles)

Wrong. It's illegal to buy the region locked ones, which I don't. I buy from businesses based in the UK (Gaming Dragons), where they get their products from is down to them, but I can bet you right here that they do it legally. Since when can businesses not sell imported goods?

and retailers here in the UK are losing sales as well and we all know they are doing so well arn't they.

High Street Retailers are losing sales because of the grey market now?

The Grey market takes money from digital distributors, who are just the smart version of the old retailer who actually moved on with the times.

 

[chris-82]

Completely wrong. Steam sales and sales in general not only breathe life into old franchises/titles that nobody plays anymore if they go on sale, but also make much more money for everyone involved than if they weren't. 10 people buying your game for £30 = £300.

100 people buying your game for £15 = £1,500.

That and the fact they actually profit from a game on sale, whereas a preowned game, nobody profits but the retailer. If a game is on sale and sells for 20p, the developer and publisher still get something, a second-hand copy for 20p, the retailer gets 20p, dev/pub nothing. End of.



You don't own your games on Steam.

I agree to a point regarding steam sales but there are plenty of games on sale that are pretty new tbh so half right half wrong there.

And your happy about the fact you pay full price for a game and don't own it why exactly?
If I paid half of retail for this apparent rental I have fine but I do not i pay full price for a product which to me means I own it.


I really cannot understand the logic of people defending a company who have made a unlawful loop around of people's rights regarding owning things you buy and people sticking up for them!

Please explain why games are the same/more money now even though I only get a key and not all other things that come with a physical copy? How is it I own a physical copy which is technically a digital copy and I own that but not with the othe method there truly is no difference however u wanna word it the truth is its the same product.
Go back to physical copy's I'm fine with that I never asked to be hearded into this situation in the first place I'm not losing out by going back in fact I get more for my money we have been pushed into this scenario costs are the same to the consumer but not to the industry they have gotten there way for way to long games have got crapper prices have risen dlc which isn't dlc it's things that should have been in the game it's slowed developers to release non finished games then we pay to get content we should have had,they have removed packaging costs yet still charge the same now the final straw is they have tried remove our rights of ownership if your happy being screwed over more fool you I however am not your argument goes on the basis of I don't want my rights because it will ruin the industry WE won't of they will have sometimes things need to be demolished to be rebuilt stronger.

 

[Omaeka]

Were the retail stores "being babies" or were they wanting a fair chance to make some sales without any one store/system monopolising?

Rubbish :/. If the retail stores are losing out to a superior service, then evolve or die. The weak constantly being protected is a huge issue holding pretty much everything in the world back as we know it, but that's an entirely different argument.

I'm all for CD key sites mate, never said different to that but I buy knowing the publishers aren't getting what they should, even more so when you have to use a VPN and stuff to activate or purchase a game. They are different prices in different territories for a reason, try selling a game for what £39.99 in lets say erm Africa? Surely out there £40 is a lot more to them than us due to the cost of living, lifestyle and pay.

I aint bothered anyway.

The only thing I care about is the damn developers/publishers not being scared out of the platform I game on, infact your whole point is just another thing putting them off, along with piracy. You argue for the very thing that'll finally kill it.

You are selling on a digital software license. not the software itself.
the RIGHT to use the software as intended.

That's pretty much what I said mate... I disagree with being able to sell on the creators 'okay'.

I agree to a point regarding steam sales but there are plenty of games on sale that are pretty new tbh so half right half wrong there.

And your happy about the fact you pay full price for a game and don't own it why exactly?

I really cannot understand the logic of people defending a company who have made a unlawful loop around of people's rights regarding owning things you buy and people sticking up for them!

I couldn't care less what Valve do. You don't seem to realise mate, that if trade-ins happened, Valve would make more bloody money as they are the distributor and the ones who would further profit.

Valve however, are intelligent and can see the impact that pre-owned copies can do for an already struggling platform. They know developers will walk away.

Please explain why games are the same/more money now even though I only get a key and not all other things that come with a physical copy? How is it I own a physical copy which is technically a digital copy and I own that but not with the othe method there truly is no difference however u wanna word it the truth is its the same product.

That's something which should change, I agree. We should pay a little less as the digital side has no cost for the people involved except the consumer.

Go back to physical copy's I'm fine with that I never asked to be hearded into this situation in the first place I'm not losing out by going back in fact I get more for my money we have been pushed into this scenario costs are the same to the consumer but not to the industry they have gotten there way for way to long games have got crapper prices have risen dlc which isn't dlc it's things that should have been in the game it's slowed developers to release non finished games then we pay to get content we should have had,they have removed packaging costs yet still charge the same now the final straw is they have tried remove our rights of ownership if your happy being screwed over more fool you I however am not your argument goes on the basis of I don't want my rights because it will ruin the industry WE won't of they will have sometimes things need to be demolished to be rebuilt stronger.

The benefits of digital vs retail is a lost argument, mate.

 

[Wh00pS]

Wrong. The creators charge the same, and the distributors get charged by the creators. The price of each unit is at the distributors transgression



Wrong. It's illegal to buy the region locked ones, which I don't. I buy from businesses based in the UK (Gaming Dragons), where they get their products from is down to them, but I can bet you right here that they do it legally. Since when can businesses not sell imported goods?



High Street Retailers are losing sales because of the grey market now?

The Grey market takes money from digital distributors, who are just the smart version of the old retailer who actually moved on with the times.

Your wrong, it's common business practice for foreign manufacturers/ designers/ creators/ publishers to sell at reduced rates in lower income countries. They would rather sell at reduced rates and still have that countries market than to not have that business at all.

Also some of the UK sellers do sell keys from other regions there are plenty of posts here and in the steam forums where people have purchased from uk sites and the games have been in polish, german, russian etc.

Game, play.com etc are uk retailers who offer digital distribution so yes they are getting screwed over by the grey importers as they are legaly bound to sell the uk versions.

 

[Omaeka]

Your wrong, it's common business practice for foreign manufacturers/ designers/ creators/ publishers to sell at reduced rates in lower income countries. They would rather sell at reduced rates and still have that countries market than to not have that business at all.

Maybe, but it'd be nice to have some proof.

When it comes to video games, distributors get a hell of a lot more of the money than the creators. That may not be the case with cars and other goods, but as shown numerous times before, they are incomparable.

Seriously mate, Steam get almost everything from a game sale, so if I want to buy from a Grey market site who sell the game at a little cheaper, I will. The creators do not lose out, and that copy is still counted as a sales figure.

Also some of the UK sellers do sell keys from other regions there are plenty of posts here and in the steam forums where people have purchased from uk sites and the games have been in polish, german, russian etc.

I've never experienced that.

Game, play.com etc are uk retailers who offer digital distribution so yes they are getting screwed over by the grey importers as they are legaly bound to sell the uk versions.

Play are a bloody horrible service, as are Game. It was inevitable that more and more things would become digital, if they want to sit around still trying to back the dying horse, then more the fool them. We are nearing the information era after all...

 

[chris-82]

I couldn't care less what Valve do.

And that's where the problem lays and why they have gotten away with what they have.



The benefits of digital vs retail is a lost argument, mate.

How?explain?