Why England football team under perform?
- Thread starter mo9204
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Pah I'd go as far back as 2002-2004 as the last period where England looked like they might do something in a major tournament
Caporegime
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The two foreign coaches were not only better than every single English appointment since Venables, including that nutjob Hoddle, but they got better results. The managers really haven't been the problem unless they've been called Hoddle, McLaren or Keegan.
Soldato
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I'd agree, and then even further back to 1996 and 1998 too. 2006-2010 was the worst England side in a long time. Forget the results (which were also average), our team lacked any proper team work. Under Fabio the discipline for passing and moving forward was awful. We also lacked creativity, which I blame largely due to lacking players who are able to create something. Under Roy, our team for the first time since 2002-2004, have regained team work, formation, and discipline. We might not have the creative spark, but we are definitely a better team than the one that went to the 2010 world cup - which is a start!
Caporegime
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The results were nothing to do with foreign coaches, just what players were available at the time. England didn't change under Sven or Capello OTHER teams did, and luck will get you further some years than others. The same mismatched central midfield that simply consisted of the most valuable players for merchandise. Sven and Capello did nothing new, at all, and neither did well, fixed the attitude of players, improved the football, picked teams based on form, balance, quality, just the same crap over and over.
Mclaren didn't pick teams differently to Sven or Capello, same crap over and over. England looked improved in the last few Capello games IIRC, largely because Wilshire came into the team, others were injured, I think Barry might have been injured, so he was pretty much forced to go Wilshire and Parker with, maybe Lampard, can't quite remember, and the team was vastly improved.
Should Capello get credit for England improving, because someone he picked constantly who was woeful was injured, and Wilshire got old enough under his reign rather than Wilshire being 4 years older and getting in the team 4 years earlier? Results change, injuries change, the general feel of the team, the way they played, the types of players picked, Capello changed nothing, time did, any manager would have brought Wilshire into the team during an epic season for the kid. Mclown did nothing worse than Sven, just different opposition, different games, different luck, same team, same players, same tactics, same mistakes.
Mclaren didn't pick teams differently to Sven or Capello, same crap over and over. England looked improved in the last few Capello games IIRC, largely because Wilshire came into the team, others were injured, I think Barry might have been injured, so he was pretty much forced to go Wilshire and Parker with, maybe Lampard, can't quite remember, and the team was vastly improved.
Should Capello get credit for England improving, because someone he picked constantly who was woeful was injured, and Wilshire got old enough under his reign rather than Wilshire being 4 years older and getting in the team 4 years earlier? Results change, injuries change, the general feel of the team, the way they played, the types of players picked, Capello changed nothing, time did, any manager would have brought Wilshire into the team during an epic season for the kid. Mclown did nothing worse than Sven, just different opposition, different games, different luck, same team, same players, same tactics, same mistakes.
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2 problems, one we spend all our media attention banging on about fake celebrities all day every day ruining the teams chances of most things.
Also not helped by every singe England manager from the last millennium playing an arcane 4-4-2 system which is about as easy to beat as a dead horse.
Mild irritant also of calling up players who play for the "big" teams opposed to the ones that are good (should have played Lambert and Lallana by now instead of mucking about with Welbeck)
Also not helped by every singe England manager from the last millennium playing an arcane 4-4-2 system which is about as easy to beat as a dead horse.
Mild irritant also of calling up players who play for the "big" teams opposed to the ones that are good (should have played Lambert and Lallana by now instead of mucking about with Welbeck)
Soldato
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Our of interest, what players would people choose for an England team today (including formation)?
Based on current form...
---------------Hart---------------
Johnson--Cahill--Jagielka--Baines
--------------Carrick--------------
------Cleverley----Wilshere------
Walcott------Rooney------Sturridge
On current form I guess Lampard has an argument to still be included and if Gerrard continues to play like he did against City (big if) then he likewise, it's definitely and either or situation though, under no circumstances can you play the 2 of them even with an extra man in there. I guess Cleverley would be the most likely to move out if you brought either in.
---------------Hart---------------
Johnson--Cahill--Jagielka--Baines
--------------Carrick--------------
------Cleverley----Wilshere------
Walcott------Rooney------Sturridge
On current form I guess Lampard has an argument to still be included and if Gerrard continues to play like he did against City (big if) then he likewise, it's definitely and either or situation though, under no circumstances can you play the 2 of them even with an extra man in there. I guess Cleverley would be the most likely to move out if you brought either in.
Caporegime
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Of that team I would change two of the back line, two of the midfield three, and three of the front three 
Johnson and Walcott on the wing though, suicidal right wing there.
Johnson and Walcott on the wing though, suicidal right wing there.
---------------Hart---------------
Johnson--Cahill--Jagielka--A.Cole
--------------Carrick--------------
---Walcott--------Wilshere------Gerrard
----------Sturridge
---------- Rooney-------------
I've been watching football (on tele admittedly) for over 30 years. To me, England have always looked like they were a level below the top teams. They simply cannot, and to my recollection, have never been able to retain the ball!
I don't so much think its a poor first touch, so to speak, but the 2nd and 3rd touches that are the problem. By that i mean that when I watch better teams the players seem to move and create a bit of space for themselves before they receive the ball... almost a process of-:
think, move, control ball then pass/dribble, whereas with English players its contol ball, think, move/dribble - a much slower process.
I don't so much think its a poor first touch, so to speak, but the 2nd and 3rd touches that are the problem. By that i mean that when I watch better teams the players seem to move and create a bit of space for themselves before they receive the ball... almost a process of-:
think, move, control ball then pass/dribble, whereas with English players its contol ball, think, move/dribble - a much slower process.
Caporegime
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You do not need a Drogba, Messi, Ronaldo, RVP to win things, if you did, Argentina, Portugal, Holland and Ivory Coast would win more things. Spain do the simple things right and have great passes all through midfield, their goals are usually a collection of the right decisions being made, but ultimatley lots of simple passes, the right passes, not the wrong ones. The winning goals for the first Euro and world cup were pretty simple IIRC< as were many goals in the competition. Solid build up play, great passing, not players who can take on 5 guys and score a brilliant individual goal.
Old Brazil who were brilliant had guys like Gilberto, exceptional defensive players who could also attack, not the Marcelo's who can't defend for crap. Brazil are a bit crap and have been for a while, and its mostly because they play these all flair, no solidity, no balance teams. The brazil's who won cups were great teams, not only flair/attacking players, solid teams play great attacking football, a bunch of individuals don't play good anything.
Rooney has been crap as a lone striker for England and is usually crap as a lone striker for Utd, he constantly wants to drop deep leaving no one ahead of him, Utd play infinitely better when someone plays ahead of Rooney(or the one season he played upfront and STAYED upfront. He's not good enough to drop into the hole and run a game, he thinks he is, he isn't, his passing isn't anywhere near good enough. He's much better off starting deep and driving a team forwards than starting high up and constantly running back to midfield, he gets the ball, already has his back to goal and no one ahead of him to pass to and play off, he should never play as a lone striker for England.
Carrick is simply turd, Spurs game highlighted everything that was terrible about him, zero physical presense in central midfield, zero pace, insanely easy to push back and then dominate Utd, he did more work at left back than in central midfield, and Utd were under pressure the whole game because he couldn't do anything at all in midfield.
Yeah, when Utd dominate a team and he's under little pressure and gets time on the ball and gets further foward he can look "classy" with some of his passing. Against top teams, he disappears completely, allows UTD to collapse and is utterly worthless. England need to stop building teams to beat San Marino and build a team to compete with Spain, Carrick isn't 1/10th of the player he needs to be in that role.
Old Brazil who were brilliant had guys like Gilberto, exceptional defensive players who could also attack, not the Marcelo's who can't defend for crap. Brazil are a bit crap and have been for a while, and its mostly because they play these all flair, no solidity, no balance teams. The brazil's who won cups were great teams, not only flair/attacking players, solid teams play great attacking football, a bunch of individuals don't play good anything.
Rooney has been crap as a lone striker for England and is usually crap as a lone striker for Utd, he constantly wants to drop deep leaving no one ahead of him, Utd play infinitely better when someone plays ahead of Rooney(or the one season he played upfront and STAYED upfront. He's not good enough to drop into the hole and run a game, he thinks he is, he isn't, his passing isn't anywhere near good enough. He's much better off starting deep and driving a team forwards than starting high up and constantly running back to midfield, he gets the ball, already has his back to goal and no one ahead of him to pass to and play off, he should never play as a lone striker for England.
Carrick is simply turd, Spurs game highlighted everything that was terrible about him, zero physical presense in central midfield, zero pace, insanely easy to push back and then dominate Utd, he did more work at left back than in central midfield, and Utd were under pressure the whole game because he couldn't do anything at all in midfield.
Yeah, when Utd dominate a team and he's under little pressure and gets time on the ball and gets further foward he can look "classy" with some of his passing. Against top teams, he disappears completely, allows UTD to collapse and is utterly worthless. England need to stop building teams to beat San Marino and build a team to compete with Spain, Carrick isn't 1/10th of the player he needs to be in that role.
Overall generally poor technique over the team - I think just about every team that isn't Scotland, Wales or Ireland has managed to look great next to England just because the other team's players just have plain better technique and are more capable of retaining the ball and passing it around without panicking and hoofing it up field at the slightest pressure.
That's not to say that we don't still comfortably beat some of the poorer teams but we still manage to look absolutely rubbish in doing so.
That's not to say that we don't still comfortably beat some of the poorer teams but we still manage to look absolutely rubbish in doing so.
Been said before, but England don't underperform, they perform at their level (somehow FIFA have them higher than they should be in the world rankings mind you). Don't be fooled by the media either, England don't have any world class performers at international level.
If that's our best we're punching above our weight getting to the last 8 with that team.
MW
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In before England beat Brazil tonight, the red tops and most news outlets declare them the 'next gen. of world beaters' only to draw against the Rep. of Ireland next month and all be ****ged off by the same newspapers who proclaimed them the saviors after Brazil.
The press have a massive impact on England and the perceived ability of the squad and individual players.
The press have a massive impact on England and the perceived ability of the squad and individual players.
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The champions league killed the desire. International football is a lower standard. They play and test themselves so much on the highest level each season that another international against sweden just doesn't cut it.
They don't play often enough together and players drop like flies for friendlies. Players like Rooney and Strurrige for example show they need a run of games and yet we expect to dump them in a tournament and gel together in 4 days.
I think it's good financially for them to be England players but they just be bothered to put the effort in to gelling a team and creating a tight unit.
TBH I can't blame them anymore.
They don't play often enough together and players drop like flies for friendlies. Players like Rooney and Strurrige for example show they need a run of games and yet we expect to dump them in a tournament and gel together in 4 days.
I think it's good financially for them to be England players but they just be bothered to put the effort in to gelling a team and creating a tight unit.
TBH I can't blame them anymore.