Lance Armstrong charges

sunama said:
Whose dreams are you referring to?
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The dreams of the fans, young and old who believed in his incredible story. The dreams of the many young cyclists around the World who idolised him and hoped to emulate him when older. The dreams of the young Pros, who joined the Pro Peleton and wanted to be him. The dreams of the Pros who just wanted to ride clean and see where their natural talent took them, but were instead driven out of the sport by Lance and his hold over the Peleton and it's associated Teams and businesses.
 
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George Hincapie said:
The dreams of the fans, young and old who believed in his incredible story. The dreams of the many young cyclists around the World who idolised him and hoped to emulate him when older. The dreams of the young Pros, who joined the Pro Peleton and wanted to be him. The dreams of the Pros who just wanted to ride clean and see where their natural talent took them, but were instead driven out of the sport by Lance and his hold over the Peleton and it's associated Teams and businesses.
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Back in the mid-90s, I was exploring the possibility of maybe becoming a pro cyclist. I was in a cycle shop and the shop assistant, quite casually stated that in order to be a pro, you must take drugs. This is a given. This was in 1997.

Now, my take on this, is that if it was accepted (in the mid 90s) that to be a pro you need to cheat, why would any new cyclist, wanting to become a pro, not know that he is expected to cheat? This research should be part of a cycling pro's education? He must then make a decision on whether he wants to get with the program or quit the pro cycling dream.

The problem is that cycling is a pro-sport and whenever money is at stake, cheating will always be the option that many teams/athletes opt for. If there was less money in the sport, the funds available to spend on drugs/doping would be reduced and we would see a more cleaner sport.

The current court case, involving many bags of blood being found in Dr Eufemiano Fuentes's offices, states that some of the blood belonged to athletes from other disciplines.

I often do wonder if (amateur) athletes who have competed in the Olympics are clean or not. Mo Farah went to the USA and his performances improved to a point where he achieved gold medals in 5000m and 10000m. This is almost super-human.
 
sunama said:
Yates did say that he saw nothing untoward while working with LA.
TBH, this would be my response if I were in his position. I would never dob-in a friend/team-mate. Never have. Never will. Also consider that USP were paying his wages. I dont believe in biting off the hand that feeds me.
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It's exactly this attitude that has got cycling into the mess it's in now. There's nothing to be admired or endorsed about burying your head in the sand.
 
George Hincapie said:
My personal belief is that no-one has ever won the Tour de France clean.

The more research I do, the more true I believe that to be.
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I don't know enough about cycling but I'm right there in that boat.

sunama said:
I often do wonder if (amateur) athletes who have competed in the Olympics are clean or not. Mo Farah went to the USA and his performances improved to a point where he achieved gold medals in 5000m and 10000m. This is almost super-human.
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And will we ever know? I doubt it. If cyclists, strongmen and bodybuilders all need drugs to compete at the top why would other disciplines be any different.
 
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The point is people only "need" drugs to compete at the top if it is a given that everyone is using drugs i.e. the rules are being violated to the point of being worthless, either because everyone is too clever for the rules or because no one is enforcing the rules.

The problems need to be rooted out at the deepest level so that there can be some assurance that people aren't cheating and that there is any level of credibility to the sport.
 
Just when I thought this miserable piece of filth couldn't sink any lower...

One of Lance Armstrong's former team-mates has backed up claims that the disgraced American paid off rivals to help win a lucrative $1 million race bonus in the early years of his career.

Last year Four Corners uncovered footage of a sworn deposition by former New Zealand rider Stephen Swart in which he alleged that Armstrong offered him and his team-mates a payment of $US50,000 to allow Armstrong to win the Triple Crown race series in the US in 1993.

The three-race series carried a bonus of $US1 million for any rider who could win all three - a prize which Armstrong duly claimed when he took victory in the third and deciding race in Philadelphia.

Now Frankie Andreu, who was in Armstrong's Motorola team at the time and went on to become one of his key Tour de France lieutenants with US Postal, has come forward with a fresh claim that a payment was offered, and made, during the Triple Crown.

Speaking on the subject for the first time to ABC TV's Four Corners, Andreu said he knew a deal was made with riders from an opposing team during the Philadelphia race.
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(Source).
 
I note from the BBC Magazine that some people in California are suing Lance Armstrong/his publishers because they "wouldn't have bought his book if they'd known" (article here). Interesting although I'd suspect that as the article suggests if they get anywhere it would be with an out of court settlement. I'd hope that any money in a settlement goes to charity rather than anywhere else.
 
My 2 pence: Making LA the fall-guy will do nothing but deflect what looks like a much more widespread issue across multiple sports around the World. The one that sets off the sirens for me, everytime, is the Olympics. It is a shame, but I view most Endurance Sports with a more cynical eye these days, preferring those that require teamwork, elevated skills (hand-eye etc.) and coordination instead.

On a related note, regarding the betting scandal that has just come to light about football - just how respectable are the Sports we watch? Very sad :(
 
George Hincapie said:
The dreams of the fans, young and old who believed in his incredible story. The dreams of the many young cyclists around the World who idolised him and hoped to emulate him when older. The dreams of the young Pros, who joined the Pro Peleton and wanted to be him. The dreams of the Pros who just wanted to ride clean and see where their natural talent took them, but were instead driven out of the sport by Lance and his hold over the Peleton and it's associated Teams and businesses.
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Do you really feel that way? I find it amazing how many sensible intelligent people seemed to have bought into the myth that Lance Armstrong was some sort of behmouth who had total control of cycling, forced everyone to take drugs and murdered the babies of those who didn't. One man cannot possibly be to blame for the ills of the sport of cycling he is just a figure head in this much like he was a figure head for the success of cycling when he was winning.

For my money it's just easier for people to accept the big bad wolf theory than to accept that an entire generation were scumbags driven by greed and stupidity even your beloved George who lets remember only cam clean once he'd hung up his cleets and the noose was round his neck.
 
By the looks of it the UCI were complicit in what was going on.

Tyler Hamilton has stated that in his opinion, around 10 years ago, approximately 80% of the peloton was taking PEDs. If most riders knew what was going on (ie. that you need PEDs to finish in the top 3, in the tour), are we to believe that the UCI had no idea? Are they UCI this mis-informed and in the dark?

People need to remember that the vast majority of cyclists who finished on the podium in the TDF, during the LA years, were all on PEDs. Is LA responsible for them, as well?

Don't get me wrong, LA is definitely a villain - not because he took PEDs, but because he intimidated those who spoke the truth about what he was up to.

The funny thing is that the UCI are the ones who allowed all this to go on, and the UCI is attempting to do an investigation. Apparently an independent panel was setup to do the investigation, which was then disbanded because the members of that panel wanted freedom to run the investigation, in a matter, that they wanted. Furthermore, other authorities did not want to co-operate with UCI as they do not have confidence in the UCI.
 
a1ex2001 said:
Do you really feel that way?
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Yes.

I find it amazing how many sensible intelligent people seemed to have bought into the myth that Lance Armstrong was some sort of behmouth who had total control of cycling, forced everyone to take drugs and murdered the babies of those who didn't. One man cannot possibly be to blame for the ills of the sport of cycling he is just a figure head in this much like he was a figure head for the success of cycling when he was winning.
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I have never suggested that he was the only guilty party. Not everyone in the Peleton at that time were abusing PEDs, but I suspect the majority were. I have to say though, that you really are burying your head in the sand if you think LA didn't have the sport in an iron grip for a decade.

For my money it's just easier for people to accept the big bad wolf theory than to accept that an entire generation were scumbags driven by greed and stupidity even your beloved George who lets remember only cam clean once he'd hung up his cleets and the noose was round his neck.
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I have never defended George's use of PEDs. My feelings are on record and forgive me if I don't repeat them for the trillionth time.
 
The issue of prison is down to perjury case against him.

I believe that because 5 years have passed, it will be difficult for a judge to send him to prison based on a testimony which was given in court, more than 5 years ago. It is this 5 year duration which has passed, that will save him.

Also consider that Marion Jones was not nearly as intelligent as LA. LA knows how to play "the game". The guy is a politician - so intelligent and so aware of how to manipulate the beliefs of joe public.

Think about this. He lied for over a decade in multiple interviews (including courts). Convincing most people of his innocence. This is not easy.
 
sunama said:
The issue of prison is down to perjury case against him.

I believe that because 5 years have passed, it will be difficult for a judge to send him to prison based on a testimony which was given in court, more than 5 years ago. It is this 5 year duration which has passed, that will save him.

Also consider that Marion Jones was not nearly as intelligent as LA. LA knows how to play "the game". The guy is a politician - so intelligent and so aware of how to manipulate the beliefs of joe public.

Think about this. He lied for over a decade in multiple interviews (including courts). Convincing most people of his innocence. This is not easy.
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Well, reports are that he's under criminal investigation for "obstruction, witness tampering and intimidation". Not sure if that could lead to jail time or not, but sounds like it's not just a matter of perjury
 
sunama said:
By the looks of it the UCI were complicit in what was going on.
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Of course they were. It all looks like one big scam set up to get the owner of Tailwind sports (forget the name now) a shed load of cash, hence insuring his win payments.

He helped fund the UCI, American Cycling, and a whole load of other things in cycling. Read an interesting article that was linked in this thread actually thinking about it, I'll see if I can find it.
 
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