Where is the money at these days in computing?

jonneymendoza · 9 Feb 2013 at 18:03

dowie said:
No you don't. Remember we're talking about people working in IT in banks not quants/traders etc...

They seem to demand a genius. one that knows Maths formulaes inside and out, one that knows every java(insert proposed programming language) syntax/definition and api all in one go and know how to develope and create your own algorithm in 30mins.

i've been to loads of interviews like the above for some hedge fund companies and this is their process.

Some even want u to spend a whole day their doing the interview etc

Yes i do work for retail banking. Which narrows it down even further where only the likes of UPS can throw 40-50k on a grad

Mr^B · 9 Feb 2013 at 18:08

jonneymendoza said:
Besides bank who else does grad roles offering that salary?

U have got to be a proper genius to work in a hedge fund/investment bank.

i work in the banking industry myself building software for other banks and we offer only 20k for grads.

i also did a quick google on cwjobs and it came up with only 2 graduate roles

http://www.cwjobs.co.uk/JobSearch/R...10&Rate=40000&RateType=1&LTxt=London&Radius=5

out of the whole of London.

It shows that those roles are rare, very very rare and not a common thing.

Why preach to people saying they can walk out of uni in a 40k role? be real my friend. those are the exception not the norm.

You said they don't exist, now you say that they do. Make your mind up!

I work for a hedge fund, and I'm pretty sure I'm not a genius. I am a competent programmer and software engineer, nothing more.

Graduate roles tend to NOT be offered via mainstream jobsites. They have more than enough applicants as it is without having to pay to advertise.

WhyNow · 9 Feb 2013 at 18:12

As previously stated most of the IBanks hire a reasonable number of grads onto their Tech grad schemes every year and most of them will start on 40K+ base. Not sure why anyone is trying to dispute this.

WhyNow · 9 Feb 2013 at 18:14

jonneymendoza said:
No they dont. that is pure nonsense. Not even Google hire grads for 40k.

Google don't need to pay large salaries to attract grads. The banks pay more.

oldbag · 9 Feb 2013 at 18:15

I would say roles like Architecture, Principle Developer, etc.

Mr^B · 9 Feb 2013 at 18:20

jonneymendoza said:
They seem to demand a genius. one that knows Maths formulaes inside and out, one that knows every java(insert proposed programming language) syntax/definition and api all in one go and know how to develope and create your own algorithm in 30mins.

i've been to loads of interviews like the above for some hedge fund companies and this is their process.

Some even want u to spend a whole day their doing the interview etc

Yes i do work for retail banking. Which narrows it down even further where only the likes of UPS can throw 40-50k on a grad

I had an all-day technical interview for my current role. It wasn't particularly demanding intellectually, although the time-constraints made it interesting.

Hardest algorithm I had to do from scratch was a prime number one. Not particularly taxing, and it was more about how I approached and talked through the problem than how I actually solved it.

Also, picking up on an earlier theme, you can earn a lot more than £70k as an experienced developer. Again, it's not the norm. but it is possible. I certainly earn more than the contract developers I work with.

Welshy · 9 Feb 2013 at 19:02

I think that considering the original question was where is the money in a regular 9-5 job, I don't think we can count the extremely niche jobs being argued about. There may be graduate roles for £40k, but I'd bet there were 10-20 places per year.

It's like saying you will be a millionaire if you own your own company, because there are a handful of people who make that much money... The point is that you COULD do, but probably won't.

dowie · 9 Feb 2013 at 19:31

jonneymendoza said:
They seem to demand a genius. one that knows Maths formulaes inside and out, one that knows every java(insert proposed programming language) syntax/definition and api all in one go and know how to develope and create your own algorithm in 30mins.

Well perhaps they all lose a bunch of IQ points within their first year as a fair portion of the IT staff I've dealt with at financial institutions are anything but geniuses. A significant number are comically inept and happy to rely on a vendor to not only configure an application for them but to tell them how they should have it configured (something they should be deciding)... and essentially therefore how they should be running that part of their business which essentially revolves around the application and the way its been deployed.

Mr^B · 9 Feb 2013 at 19:35

Welshy said:
I think that considering the original question was where is the money in a regular 9-5 job, I don't think we can count the extremely niche jobs being argued about. There may be graduate roles for £40k, but I'd bet there were 10-20 places per year.

It's like saying you will be a millionaire if you own your own company, because there are a handful of people who make that much money... The point is that you COULD do, but probably won't.

I think the point being made is that the money to be made in computing IS in these niche roles, rather than a regular 9-5 "computing" job.

Welshy · 9 Feb 2013 at 19:42

Mr^B said:
I think the point being made is that the money to be made in computing IS in these niche roles, rather than a regular 9-5 "computing" job.

Alright yeah, I'd go for that.

dowie · 9 Feb 2013 at 19:43

Welshy said:
I think that considering the original question was where is the money in a regular 9-5 job, I don't think we can count the extremely niche jobs being argued about. There may be graduate roles for £40k, but I'd bet there were 10-20 places per year.

Its not that niche and there are a lot more than 10-20 a year.... there are about 300,000 people employed in the City, Canary Wharf and the West end. Plenty of banks have IT graduate schemes.

a figure from 2005

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/b...take-home-an-average-of-163100000-514835.html

The average pay of a male worker in the parliamentary constituency that includes London's Canary Wharf financial district rose 22 per cent to more than £101,000.

not hard to see grads getting 40k in that sort of environment

a few thousand people (apparently somewhere a bit under 10,000 of them) earned over a million a year in the city back in 2009

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8380284.stm

jonneymendoza · 9 Feb 2013 at 19:51

Mr^B said:
I had an all-day technical interview for my current role. It wasn't particularly demanding intellectually, although the time-constraints made it interesting.

Hardest algorithm I had to do from scratch was a prime number one. Not particularly taxing, and it was more about how I approached and talked through the problem than how I actually solved it.

Also, picking up on an earlier theme, you can earn a lot more than £70k as an experienced developer. Again, it's not the norm. but it is possible. I certainly earn more than the contract developers I work with.

prime number? i did one as well. that was simple to do. i have had harder ones then that.

all day interviews are time consuming especially when you are working already.

Welshy said:
I think that considering the original question was where is the money in a regular 9-5 job, I don't think we can count the extremely niche jobs being argued about. There may be graduate roles for £40k, but I'd bet there were 10-20 places per year.

It's like saying you will be a millionaire if you own your own company, because there are a handful of people who make that much money... The point is that you COULD do, but probably won't.

This is my point. we cant really throw this argument over. it is a rare occurance. its not the norm for a grad to go into a 40k role.

dowie said:
Well perhaps they all lose a bunch of IQ points within their first year as a fair portion of the IT staff I've dealt with at financial institutions are anything but geniuses. A significant number are comically inept and happy to rely on a vendor to not only configure an application for them but to tell them how they should have it configured (something they should be deciding)... and essentially therefore how they should be running that part of their business which essentially revolves around the application and the way its been deployed.

Serious? The way in which these interviews are done, its as if they are indeed looking to hire a proper geek/genious.

Anyways if hedge funds and the likes are not hiring via cwjobs then where? got a link to where these big investment banks hire?

dowie · 9 Feb 2013 at 20:04

jonneymendoza said:
Serious? The way in which these interviews are done, its as if they are indeed looking to hire a proper geek/genious.

Anyways if hedge funds and the likes are not hiring via cwjobs then where? got a link to where these big investment banks hire?

As far as grad schemes are concerned you can apply directly.

Above that level you'll tend to make contacts yourself or go via a recruiter... linkedin is a good idea...if you've got the right skill set you'll get contacted on there both by recruitment firms and (increasingly it seems) by internal recruiters employed by banks etc... I used www.efinancialcareers.co.uk once in the past too, though no idea whether its any good these days.

diamount · 9 Feb 2013 at 20:14

Ethical hackers get paid a ****load.

Mr^B · 9 Feb 2013 at 20:23

jonneymendoza said:
prime number? i did one as well. that was simple to do. i have had harder ones then that.

all day interviews are time consuming especially when you are working already.

This is my point. we cant really throw this argument over. it is a rare occurance. its not the norm for a grad to go into a 40k role.

Serious? The way in which these interviews are done, its as if they are indeed looking to hire a proper geek/genious.

Anyways if hedge funds and the likes are not hiring via cwjobs then where? got a link to where these big investment banks hire?

Maybe they were looking for something specific then, who knows. What was the job/role you were going for? Sounds like it was perhaps too far into the quant space for you. There's plenty of non-genius level development roles in front, middle and back office at IBs and hedge funds.

I got my last job via linkedin, and we tend to hire through just a single specialised agency, who advertise via jobserve and various other sites.

Graduate roles tend not to be done that way, but via direct application via a milk-round or something similar. There's simply no need to advertise them elsewhere as they are massively over-subscribed as it is.

We are picking up the "40k" bit because you said that they don't exist;

"no one in london walks in a 40k development role!"

...when clearly they do. They're rare, yes, but they exist.

jonneymendoza · 9 Feb 2013 at 21:51

dowie said:
As far as grad schemes are concerned you can apply directly.

Above that level you'll tend to make contacts yourself or go via a recruiter... linkedin is a good idea...if you've got the right skill set you'll get contacted on there both by recruitment firms and (increasingly it seems) by internal recruiters employed by banks etc... I used www.efinancialcareers.co.uk once in the past too, though no idea whether its any good these days.

not a grad mate. 6 year experience dev now and all the recruiters keep tossing unattractive roles to me.

Mr^B said:
Maybe they were looking for something specific then, who knows. What was the job/role you were going for? Sounds like it was perhaps too far into the quant space for you. There's plenty of non-genius level development roles in front, middle and back office at IBs and hedge funds.

I got my last job via linkedin, and we tend to hire through just a single specialised agency, who advertise via jobserve and various other sites.

Graduate roles tend not to be done that way, but via direct application via a milk-round or something similar. There's simply no need to advertise them elsewhere as they are massively over-subscribed as it is.

We are picking up the "40k" bit because you said that they don't exist;

"no one in london walks in a 40k development role!"

...when clearly they do. They're rare, yes, but they exist.

software developer role in java and/or android.

i just did a codability test on one and wrote a app on another. i have a tele interview for another one next week which is a 30min one asking me about java, maths and logic(sounds tuff as it is).

if i succeed that stage they want me to dedicate a whole day for the final stage with more java/maths/logic test and whiteboard. Sounds hardcore and sounds they want a genius. Not even a hedge fund/investment banking company lol

HangTime · 9 Feb 2013 at 22:09

estebanrey said:
So I had to go back up three flights of stairs to my PC, find the ticketing system, write out what I wanted help with before all the way down with my ref number, at that point they came next door and simply pressed two buttons for me and left again.

Of course it's possible they were just winding me up, or they were working to rule in protest of new rules but it also didn't surprised me based on the culture of the business I was working for.

Where I work they are usually OK with retrospective tickets i.e. for small changes that don't require signoff/approval they will usually do them provided a ticket logged for them to book the work against later on. Although it may seem petty I can see why they would do it, they could be getting heat from above "EVERYTHING YOU DO MUST BE LOGGED AGAINST A TICKET", no point getting a dressing-down just to be a nice guy.

dowie · 9 Feb 2013 at 22:14

jonneymendoza said:
not a grad mate. 6 year experience dev now and all the recruiters keep tossing unattractive roles to me.

you said you worked on the retail side and you're having trouble interviewing at banks/hedge funds - I think that for lots of experienced candidates they'll often expect some specific domain knowledge and some experience of working with certain products - you probably don't have either(as far as their business is concerned).

e.g. you're going for some development role at some place that trades equities - if you're got experience with equities, have worked with FIX protocol, market data feeds, have some knowledge of some vendor (say Fidessa etc..) and you're a developer... that might make things easier - you're not likely going to get the relevant domain knowledge working on the retail banking side.

so a linkedin profile for a dev with some experience in a particular domain (equities, FX etc..) with relevant technologies, relevant vendor experience etc... is much more likely to be picked up by a recruiter looking to fill certain roles than someone with experience as a developer in an unrelated domain.

jonneymendoza · 9 Feb 2013 at 22:52

dowie said:
you said you worked on the retail side and you're having trouble interviewing at banks/hedge funds - I think that for lots of experienced candidates they'll often expect some specific domain knowledge and some experience of working with certain products - you probably don't have either(as far as their business is concerned).

e.g. you're going for some development role at some place that trades equities - if you're got experience with equities, have worked with FIX protocol, market data feeds, have some knowledge of some vendor (say Fidessa etc..) and you're a developer... that might make things easier - you're not likely going to get the relevant domain knowledge working on the retail banking side.

so a linkedin profile for a dev with some experience in a particular domain (equities, FX etc..) with relevant technologies, relevant vendor experience etc... is much more likely to be picked up by a recruiter looking to fill certain roles than someone with experience as a developer in an unrelated domain.

And how am i suppose to get that experience if hedge funds and the likes only look for people in that domain?

i could be the most talented dev in the world and stil wont be enough to meet their requirements.

Its as if people are unable to learn new things and dont give them the opprtunity. no wonder why there are soo many people struggling to get jobs especially grads.

Anyways i have not tried applying for such roles yet. the last time i applied for one was 3 years ago.

dowie · 9 Feb 2013 at 23:16

jonneymendoza said:
And how am i suppose to get that experience if hedge funds and the likes only look for people in that domain?

I'm not familiar with hedge funds specifically - clients I work with are large banks but I'd assume that some time spent at a bank or vendor would help you gain some experience - perhpas Mr^B can advise...

i could be the most talented dev in the world and stil wont be enough to meet their requirements.

nah there are also very technical roles out there too... though as you've indicated the interviews have been a bit taxing...

IMHO if you're not some uber technical guy then gaining domain knowledge, experience working with products from certain vendors might mean that you can go for roles that pay well and don't require you to be quite so technical.

While hardcore techies might be developing low latency execution code... I'm sure they also require guys with fairly ordinary dev skills who work with risk software, back office stuff etc... Though a useful skill set if you're doing that sort of dev work would be some experience working with the various vendors' software already or at least some understanding of that domain... i.e. something people who've worked at a vendor, bank, brokerage etc.. will have.