Poundland Girl Wins Forced Labour Ruling

Agreed.

Then they'd also be the temptation to reduce the number of existing fully paid employees and replace them with subsidised "JSA" workers.

It's already happened. ASDA have been taking on JSA people at stores where they apparently have no open vacancies. There's no jobs for people at the end of the scheme.

It would be better if there was at least some possibility of a job after all of the free labour.
 
The government have acted unlawfully here, they can't and should not get off scott free, they must be held accountable for their actions, starting with Ian Drunken Smiths arrest, yes, Police investigation and charges to follow is the order of the day.

not going to happen, IDS seems to be able to say what he wants and do anything as long as he's bashing the jobseeker its all good.
 
A more fair and sensible way of doing it would have been the claimaint getting their benefit via the 11.5 hours worked and the employer topping up the extra 18.5+ hours with minimum wage. That way the claimant would get a proper wage for work done and the company wins by reduced labour costs for taking a chance on someone and having to potentialy take time training/supervising them.

+1.. I also think as a minimum there should be some undertaking by employers to offer training NVQ whatever so that there are other incentives. Plus what if they place someone into an IT enviroment or clerical/admin. Many of those jobs merit way more that "minimum wage" It's only the last few years as the job market has been flooded that almost every job abvertised appear to be "minimum" Everyone savages the unemployed for not getting off their backside and taking what's available. Yet not one word about employers chopping and changing contracts, hours, terms to hold the wages at minimum. Employers are taking advantage of the situation and making it worse.
 
Maybe the way forward is to have people working in communities and for the council then? That way they are gaining experience and not contributing to the profits of the private industry with nothing in return.
 
+1.. I also think as a minimum there should be some undertaking by employers to offer training NVQ whatever so that there are other incentives. Plus what if they place someone into an IT enviroment or clerical/admin. Many of those jobs merit way more that "minimum wage" It's only the last few years as the job market has been flooded that almost every job abvertised appear to be "minimum" Everyone savages the unemployed for not getting off their backside and taking what's available. Yet not one word about employers chopping and changing contracts, hours, terms to hold the wages at minimum. Employers are taking advantage of the situation and making it worse.

well end of the day its how businesses work, making more profits and offering services for less money. the problem is its the old supply and demand thing, when you have 500k (the gov claim) and anywhere up to 3 million people looking for a job why would you offer more than you need as there will be someone who will take the min wage.

Maybe the way forward is to have people working in communities and for the council then? That way they are gaining experience and not contributing to the profits of the private industry with nothing in return.

this has already happened a bit, the problem is local councils dont miss a trick and start to cut agency staffers rather than use the extra bodies to do more in the local area.
 
this has already happened a bit, the problem is local councils dont miss a trick and start to cut agency staffers rather than use the extra bodies to do more in the local area.

Unbelievable. Basically these people that find themselves out of work are just seen as a source of exploitation then?

I've been unemployed in the past, and the Job Centre was no help at all. As soon as I realised this I started to become more pro active and found myself suitable work within a couple of weeks. Quite a lot of JC staff are clueless and completely unsuitable for the job of helping people back into work and are more statistic massagers and target whores.
 
Unbelievable. Basically these people that find themselves out of work are just seen as a source of exploitation then?

I've been unemployed in the past, and the Job Centre was no help at all. As soon as I realised this I started to become more pro active and found myself suitable work within a couple of weeks. Quite a lot of JC staff are clueless and completely unsuitable for the job of helping people back into work and are more statistic massagers and target whores.

been saying that for years, this is the 2nd time iv been out of work for a longer period of time, this time due to not being able to physically carry on at the job i was doing. when i asked about retraining they said i could only get help with training in my current career path, when i said i needed a new career due to my situation the guy just looked confused, so i just said "so that means i cant get help then" and his answer without even stopping to think was "well no as you want a new career, we arnt here to do that".

i nearly fell off the chair i was sitting on, but it just shows they dont have the ability or the back up to help anyone advance themselves, its a total shambles and has been for years.
 
It's already happened. ASDA have been taking on JSA people at stores where they apparently have no open vacancies. There's no jobs for people at the end of the scheme.

It would be better if there was at least some possibility of a job after all of the free labour.

Do you have any evidence that, if there was no workscheme people, the economics for additional paid staff add up, or is this purely supposition?
 
well end of the day its how businesses work, making more profits and offering services for less money. the problem is its the old supply and demand thing, when you have 500k (the gov claim) and anywhere up to 3 million people looking for a job why would you offer more than you need as there will be someone who will take the min wage.

Unfortunately I agree it's simply how the system/world works. The problem is people with families can't get by on minimum income so they look to other benefits to top up. Tax credits, child benefit, etc. So we have a mad system that tops folks income up because industry won't pay a living wage if they can get away with it. It not only the unemployed who claim benefits.

this has already happened a bit, the problem is local councils dont miss a trick and start to cut agency staffers rather than use the extra bodies to do more in the local area.

I can't say as i'd not do the same agency rates are money for nothing. Same argument why pay more than you need to.
 
I can't say as i'd not do the same agency rates are money for nothing. Same argument why pay more than you need to.

we'd all do the same, anyone who says they wouldnt are either lying or have a very funny view on how profits work. im sure some places could pay more but with everyone in a race to the bottom with what they pay id imagine its hard to price a contract without paying min wage.
 
Do you have any evidence that, if there was no workscheme people, the economics for additional paid staff add up, or is this purely supposition?

Why would ASDA have the workscheme people in the first place unless they had roles which needed filling? They're not doing it out of the goodness of their hearts.

If it's economically viable to have workscheme people filling those roles but not viable to employ people, well, that seems like bloody good news for the private companies. Not such good news for the people being exploited though.
 
Why would ASDA have the workscheme people in the first place unless they had roles which needed filling? They're not doing it out of the goodness of their hearts.

Because the economics are different? (and we are assuming no social conscience at work).

I went over it earlier in the thread, but to cover it again:

employee in minimum wage costs the company

minimum wage + employers ni + training + misc (such as management and admin costs)

in numbers (and rounded up/guesstimated) this would look something like:

7+1+1+1, so in this example, employing someone costs £10 per hour. in order to make this workable, that employee needs to add at least £10 of value to the business for each hour they work.

the same for a work placement indvidual misses out thr bulk of those costs, as min wage and employers ni is not applicable, so the value they need to add is dramatically reduced to make them worth having. an activity that generates £5 per hour is worth having done by someone on a work placement, but not worth employing someone for.

If it's economically viable to have workscheme people filling those roles but not viable to employ people, well, that seems like bloody good news for the private companies. Not such good news for the people being exploited though.

Well, that depends whether the placement individual gains any additonal transferable skills or insight, but I don't actually disagree with you. although I do defend the current scheme from misconceptions, lies and so on, I don't actually support it. it is required because our benefit system is fundamentally broken and needs substantial overhaul to ensure structural motivations and fairness.
 
Because the economics are different? (and we are assuming no social conscience at work).

I went over it earlier in the thread, but to cover it again:

employee in minimum wage costs the company

minimum wage + employers ni + training + misc (such as management and admin costs)

in numbers (and rounded up/guesstimated) this would look something like:

7+1+1+1, so in this example, employing someone costs £10 per hour. in order to make this workable, that employee needs to add at least £10 of value to the business for each hour they work.

the same for a work placement indvidual misses out thr bulk of those costs, as min wage and employers ni is not applicable, so the value they need to add is dramatically reduced to make them worth having. an activity that generates £5 per hour is worth having done by someone on a work placement, but not worth employing someone for.

I see what you mean but if you look at it that way, it seems even more like exploitation and completely ruins the point of the minimum wage.

Well, that depends whether the placement individual gains any additonal transferable skills or insight, but I don't actually disagree with you. although I do defend the current scheme from misconceptions, lies and so on, I don't actually support it. it is required because our benefit system is fundamentally broken and needs substantial overhaul to ensure structural motivations and fairness.

I agree that our current system is broken but this scheme seems to just add insult to injury.
 
People mentioning doing unpaid Council labour instead, isn't that what people sentenced to community service get?

I can see it now, two guys painting a park fence talking and one says to the other "I mugged an old granny, what did you do?" and the other replying "Got made redundant by my last company"
 
People mentioning doing unpaid Council labour instead, isn't that what people sentenced to community service get?

I can see it now, two guys painting a park fence talking and one says to the other "I mugged an old granny, what did you do?" and the other replying "Got made redundant by my last company"

yeah we had some where i was working, but like i said above they let some agency guys go for a few weeks while they had them in, rather than have them do extra work they used them to save money and put more people out of work.
 
I see what you mean but if you look at it that way, it seems even more like exploitation and completely ruins the point of the minimum wage.



I agree that our current system is broken but this scheme seems to just add insult to injury.

Minimum wage always has the potential to create unemployment, either by pricing activities and jobs out or by increasing the attractiveness of automation or offshoring. It is not a policy with no consequences, which is something often missed.

The current system has positive condionality, eg if you meet certain criteria you get certain things. The problem with this is that you have to have negative condtionality to balance it out and prevent moral hazard. so where you give people compensation for not having a job, you have to tie it to require the recipient to try and change the circumstances that result in them being being able to claim.

I would like to remove the conditionality both ways which solves the problem.

Mr Jack, I will do the figures and assumptions post when I am at my pc rather than my phone, probably tonight.
 
People mentioning doing unpaid Council labour instead, isn't that what people sentenced to community service get?

I can see it now, two guys painting a park fence talking and one says to the other "I mugged an old granny, what did you do?" and the other replying "Got made redundant by my last company"

I have to agree, in my book it sounds more like punishing people for being unemployed rather than making a real effort to help people at the bottom of the pile get back into work. More to do with political "spin" and the government wanting the public to see they are getting tough on the shirkers. It just looks to me that the present government have done their best to demonise the unemployed and blame them for all the countries woes. Certainly the benefit system needs to be rebuilt from the ground up because it's unsustainable in it's current form. But the bank of England has been pumping trillions into the system and that's not to pay people on benefits, it's to prop up the banks and business and the economy in general. RBS which WE now own a huge chunk of, are still paying £2 billion, in Bonuses this year. They say they have reduced them. In real terms it means they've reduced them from an average of £60K to £50K, Boo Hoo, they must be gutted. Why aren't those types of expenditure being singled out as unacceptable? It's all money in the pot, why is saving it from benefits anymore important than saving it there?

Rant over, I'll get me coat..:)
 
People mentioning doing unpaid Council labour instead, isn't that what people sentenced to community service get?

I can see it now, two guys painting a park fence talking and one says to the other "I mugged an old granny, what did you do?" and the other replying "Got made redundant by my last company"


That's brilliant eastbanrey!

Mind if I use it for a campaign I'm running about workfare?
 
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