Poundland Girl Wins Forced Labour Ruling

Sudden said:
I think you need to look up the definition of 'forced'.

Do they have to do it in that if they don't, they will be carried off and made to do it? No. Therefore, not 'forced'.

They may get their benefits stopped, but no one is physically making them to do this work and beating them if they don't.

You calling it forced labour really diminishes what everyone who actually went through forced labour went through.
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Most African slaves didn't have guns to their heads, whites didn't need to because their slaves really only had two choices... submit to slavery and be exploited but be looked after by their master (shelter/food etc) or refuse to submit to being a slave, be abandoned by their master and become an outcast in the whole of the society (homelessness and starvation an inevitibility).

It sounds pretty similar to me.
 
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TheLegendOfMart said:
What choice do they have prey tell. Do it and get benefits, don't do it and stop eating, having electricity or heating?
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Finding some other form of paid employment? It is not the case that they are being told that if they don't do it, they don't get benefits and they aren't allowed to do anything else. If that was the case, then yes, it would be forced labour.


Whether or not finding something else is viable, is a separate matter. It is definitely not the case that it is impossible, even if it may be difficult. By the existence of a possibility (which is broad since they aren't limited to a particular type of paid employment), it is no longer 'forced labour'.
 
Sudden said:
It isn't 'we will stop you having money'. It is 'we will stop giving you money'.

Nothing stopping people from looking for a paid job instead of it.

And if I understand correctly, it only happens to people who have already been unemployed for quite some time, so the 'need time to look' excuse wouldn't apply.

It is not forced labour.

Examples of forced labour -

“I was recruited from at a soup kitchen at a park in London. They always target people with drinking problems because we are easier to manipulate are more easy to make bad decisions by believing their lies. They know we will never claim our rights. I was promised between £50 and £70 a day but instead was paid virtually nothing. I was tricked twice. The first time I worked for a month without pay, the second time for two months. I was transported to and from different jobs block-paving driveways. I wanted to leave but the gang who employed me were intimidating and I had heard that other men who had tried to leave were beaten up by the gang. Plus, we were in the middle of the countryside, miles from the nearest town.”

Source - http://www.antislavery.org/english/slavery_today/forced_labour.aspx
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IT'S NOT FORCED LABOUR!!1

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Sudden said:
Finding some other form of paid employment? It is not the case that they are being told that if they don't do it, they don't get benefits and they aren't allowed to do anything else. If that was the case, then yes, it would be forced labour.


Whether or not finding something else is viable, is a separate matter. It is definitely not the case that it is impossible, even if it may be difficult. By the existence of a possibility (which is broad since they aren't limited to a particular type of paid employment), it is no longer 'forced labour'.
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Why do you think they are on benefits, because they can't get a job for whatever reason.

It's not as simple as taking any job, once you take a job you lose your JSA and housing benefit, if its a part time job how are you supposed to pay your rent let alone feed yourself.

So it is forced labour when the only other option is to starve and/or become homeless.
 
mmj_uk said:
Most African slaves didn't have guns to their heads, whites didn't need to because their slaves really only had two choices... submit to slavery and be exploited but be looked after by their master (shelter/food etc) or refuse to submit to being a slave, be abandoned by their master and become an outcast in the whole of the society (homelessness and starvation an inevitibility).

It sounds pretty similar to me.
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So you're saying that an abandoned slave is the same thing as someone who is looking for a job?

No one is being shunned because they are job hunting. Slaves however were shunned just because they were slaves.
 
Sudden said:
No one is being shunned because they are job hunting. Slaves however were shunned just because they were slaves.
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Have you read the kind of vitriol that is aimed at benefit claimants in this thread alone?

I'm in no way saying that being a job seeker is anywhere near the same as being a slave but its not all black and white like you are claiming.
 
sadbuttrue said:
Ah, but apparently because they've been out of work for so long they can "easily go find a real job" instead :rolleyes:

It's not forced but it sure is exploitation.
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No, but it is possible. Forced labour would be where that was not even an option.

I am arguing strictly about calling it forced labour and equating those who do genuinely go through forced labour to someone who is forced to look for a job.

Whether or not it is exploitation, is a separate matter.
 
TheLegendOfMart said:
Have you read the kind of vitriol that is aimed at benefit claimants in this thread alone?

I'm in no way saying that being a job seeker is anywhere near the same as being a slave but its not all black and white like you are claiming.
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Agreed, but that is what the above poster was saying which was completely ridiculous.
 
ITT Sudden = cool starry brah,

should go work for government in PR.

YEA SO WELL IT'S NOT FOCED LABOUR... however you'll end up sleeping in a wheelie bin if you don't work for less than 3 quid an hour

TROLOLOL!!1
 
TheLegendOfMart said:
Why do you think they are on benefits, because they can't get a job for whatever reason.

It's not as simple as taking any job, once you take a job you lose your JSA and housing benefit, if its a part time job how are you supposed to pay your rent let alone feed yourself.

So it is forced labour when the only other option is to starve and/or become homeless.
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Yes, and the scheme's aim was to help those people find jobs by starting them somewhere. Whether or not there is some hidden agenda, is a separate matter.

Re. taking a job and losing benefit - isn't that how it is supposed to work?
Re. taking a part time job and suffering the same - i'm not sure how it works in such cases and i'm sure you/others on this thread are more knowledgeable. I would argue that the benefits that are cut should be in line with how much you are working (while ensuring that it is not to extent that having a part time job is more profitable than having a full time job).

People can try and find jobs and this scheme applies to people who have failed at that for over a year. If people did not have this option, then it would be forced labour.
 
Sudden said:
Yes, and the scheme's aim was to help those people find jobs by starting them somewhere. Whether or not there is some hidden agenda, is a separate matter.

Re. taking a job and losing benefit - isn't that how it is supposed to work?
Re. taking a part time job and suffering the same - i'm not sure how it works in such cases and i'm sure you/others on this thread are more knowledgeable. I would argue that the benefits that are cut should be in line with how much you are working (while ensuring that it is not to extent that having a part time job is more profitable than having a full time job).

People can try and find jobs and this scheme applies to people who have failed at that for over a year. If people did not have this option, then it would be forced labour.
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Brb working in pound land gaining valuable experience.
 
I think it's fair enough.
It's like Kevin Bridges was saying, it was put in place to boost peoples self esteem.
How depressing is it working in poundland for no wages? A shop where everything is worth £1, except you.

Never work for free myself, I don't even give a minute or two off the clock at the end of the day, if it's not done I just leave it half done and go home. If less people refused to work off the clock organisations would be forced to hire.
Downside? Oh no, the multimillionaire directors might actually have to hire the correct number of people, thats one less horse in the stables on their multi million pound mansion.
It actually annoys me when people work in their evening/ days off unpaid, you should refuse to do it unless the company is gonna pay you.

I wouldn't see too much of a problem if these schemes were for local firms so people could go out and learn trades, but why should massive companies derive any benefit from the people who were unfortunate enough to lose their jobs.
If you stick someone in with a local tradesman, a builder, a butcher something like that, both parties derive some great benefit, and in the long run we have more skilled labour. They might not have funds for an apprentice but I'm sure they'll teach someone for free labour.

I'm all for bringing back a kind of facility for the long term (sponger) unemployed, make them sew up mailbags and fishing nets then give them bed and board. A sort of workhouse.
People would lower their standards if their benefits would be cut after a year and they'd be forced into a facility for the unemployable. There would be none of this "better off on benefits" crap, people would take part time jobs and lower their standard of living.

But forcing people to work in ****** retail jobs for no money gives no benefit to society - if someone was unemployable before they'll still be after.

They won't be looking at their CV "So mr. Smith, I see you have no education, you've been in prison twice, you're a registered sex offender but oh look at this, poundland let you come stack shelves for no money, impressive"
 
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How does the forced nature of taxation fit into the arguments of those who oppose negative conditions on benefits? How do you reconcile an opposition to 'forced labour' with a willingness to force others to give you money?
 
Dolph said:
How does the forced nature of taxation fit into the arguments of those who oppose negative conditions on benefits? How do you reconcile an opposition to 'forced labour' with a willingness to force others to give you money?
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The forced taxation argument is completely vacuous.

So is your injection of emotion and personalisation.
 
Dolph said:
So is the forced labour argument ;)
PHP:
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What about the bedroom tax? I suppose levying a fine of £80 on poor people and disabled families will actually help with self-realisation that they are a burden on society?

Or is it really an aid to social progression and mobility??

(It would help if someone checked on the number of 1 bedroom houses, how many have been built, are being built, and will be)

/wink
 
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Dolph said:
How does the forced nature of taxation fit into the arguments of those who oppose negative conditions on benefits? How do you reconcile an opposition to 'forced labour' with a willingness to force others to give you money?
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I hope you never get fired and find yourself unable to get a job, I'll bet you have some smart arsed remark about having the right experience and qualifications to walk into another job.

I think you'd have a different view if the shoe was on the other foot.
 
spankingtexan said:
For anyone who wants to get in on the action..

Join Boycott Workfare on 18-24 March for a week of action against workfare exploiters everywhere. Take action in a town or city near you, join in online and show all those who profit from forced labour that we mean it when we say “if you exploit us, we will shut you down”.

http://www.boycottworkfare.org/?p=1996
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I'm not a fan of the focus against individual companies - while they are part of the problem its side stepping the real issue that lies in the heart of our government(s)...
 
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