Maldives court sentences girl of 15 to 100 lashes for being raped

[estebanrey]

So we have a set of laws which apply to the natives but for which visitors are exempt. You have to admit this is bizarre.

Bit like VAT here then?

 

[dirtychinchilla]

Touché

 

[[TW]Fox]

Bit like VAT here then?

Yes, VAT being levied on domestic purchases is just like being lashed for sex outside of marriage. Obviously.

 

[estebanrey]

Yes, VAT being levied on domestic purchases is just like being lashed for sex outside of marriage. Obviously.

It is in the sense that it's a law that applies to the natives and not to visitors, which was the point I was making.

 

[[TW]Fox]

It is in the sense that it's a law that applies to the natives and not to visitors, which was the point I was making.

Technically not - its a law that applies to items remaining in the UK. If you are American and you buy a product which you won't take out of the UK, you pay VAT.

 

[drunkenmaster]

I love how you read my post and managed to discover from it that I hold either the UK or US up as beacons of culture or society, that I agree with the War in Afghanistan and every terrible act committed by my own government.

It's amazing how much you can read in a post a few dozen words long.

Or are you, as I assume, just looking for an excuse to spew bile?

Could you point out where I said you did? or were you just looking for an excuse to spew bile?

I wasn't aware that because the government of the UK has committed morally dubious acts (along with the USA) I was unable to criticise other nations who do the same.

As I'm clearly such a strong supporter of the USA & UK government's foreign policy along with corporal punishment in the UK.

Thanks for enlightening me.

As Castiel asked, exactly who are you holding up as a beacon of modern society then.

I'll also point out, I no where said you couldn't criticise anything anytime you wanted, but thanks for making up crap I didn't say. I also don't remember claiming you were a supporter of anything the USA or UK did, but again, thanks for making crap up.

It's very simple, it doesn't matter where either of you two(if not the same person) are from, nor that my examples were USA and UK(which are used in almost every example of a "modern" world by everyone who ever mentions the modern world, but lets assume you guys without stating you meant a different country, did infact mean a different' country, going against the absolutely widespread use of the term). Because you can buy a iphone in any country I could even comprehend people calling a "modern" society, and any number of other goods/products/services, therefore, they advocate the exploitation of billions of poor people to produce material goods, and most countries aside from the UK/USA have done multiple morally questionable things, in their own countries, in other countries.

Countries that sell Nike's for £80 which are made by kids in third world countries. People could not buy Nike's, and support a brand of shoe whereby the profit goes on real wages in the countries they are made in... but people don't.

THe point of my post and the only way it can be not purposefully taken is, I find it hilarious that people believe their own society to be modern and better, and complain about another society for not being so.

THey think they are modern and doing the right thing and look at the things WE do(whoever we are, where ever that is) as backwards and stupid.

The difference being, they harmed this kid, and (too many) small numbers of people with laws I deem barbaric, but I don't compare them and berate them while comparing them to any number of western or modern societys, that treat many more people incredibly badly for nothing other than profit/money/greed.

The modern world is run on every backwards principle that has been around since caveman times, capitalism, self worth, greed, yourself before others, these aren't great things that society should aspire to. The western/modern world exploits and harms many more millions of people than any of the so called "backwards" cultures do, but its ignored by most people.

I myself don't do any awful lot to stay away from products produced by exploting people, its fairly hard in the western world as the culture is so pervasive. However I'm also not such a big hypocrit that I can look down on a "backwards" culture and laugh about how much worse it is than my own, or the modern world, or how they have no place in it.

I think they are backwards for their attitudes to women, law, greed, education, etc, I think we(uk, modern society, the western world, the old world, the middle east, the far east, Russia) are all pretty terrible in general.

 

[Castiel]

Well while its true that we're far from perfect we're also in a society where we can be quite openly self critical about the way we do things. I don't see an issue with criticising an aspect of another society and pointing out that we do things better in some respects. Obviously the UK isn't exactly the gold standard while it comes to teenagers shagging around judging by the teenage pregnancy rates in some areas however I'd rather live in a society where the resulting pregnancies presented a social issue than one where the act itself (on the part of the teenager(s))was considered a serious criminal issue.

We are also a society that can be quite closed about our own issues, equally countries such as the Maldives can be very critical internally, for example there is quite a lot of civil unrest intermittently over the last few years, also nominally the Maldives is a democracy with an independant Judiciary. Each culture and society has its own issues with Human Rights, granted by our standards we would consider ourselves to be further along, but then we also have centuries of stability, wealth, universal education and liberalisation to fall back on whereas The Maldives and nations like them are still in their infancy in this regard. 50 lashes deferred until she is 18 seems pretty barbaric to us, but then so does the treatment of juveniles in some Western Prisons and care institutions to me also. Whether extramarital sex should be a matter for the law or not is difficult to judge without considering our own laws on polygamy, gay marriage and other seemingly anachronistic laws....lets not forget it was not so long ago that simply being homosexual was illegal. We should be encouraging change, not trying to enforce our morality, especially when our morality is as subjective, albeit with less open legal justification.

 

[tom_e]

Ah yeah that's OK then, she got raped by her step dad who then proceeded to murder the baby... but because she might have also had per-marital sex on another occasion she deffo deserves 100 lashes.

What sort of backward way of thinking allows people to believe that that is an OK way of dealing with the situation?

Which part of I don't agree with the law or the punishment didn't you understand?
My point is that unlike the OMG!!1!!!11 headlines she is not being punished due to the fact she was raped, she is being punished for a completely unrelated crime which she is guilty of, but that doesn't make as good a headline.

 

[Energize]

That said, we're all (I hope) disguested by this ruling, what can be done about it? For one we can make sure that we never travel to the Maldives, thinking about them for your honeymoon? Don't, cancel it, check the human rights next time and only go to places whose judicial morals you agree with.

Absolutely, it's despicable the way people go on holidays to these places like Dubai et al, their money funding this evil, they might as well donate to al-Qaeda if they're going to fund murder.

I'm sure this thread will be flooded with the usual ridiculous moral relativism in the form of, "their country their laws" alongside the two wrongs make a right fallacy of "The UK does bad things too".

 

[elmarko]

Could you point out where I said you did? or were you just looking for an excuse to spew bile?

As Castiel asked, exactly who are you holding up as a beacon of modern society then.

On a social level, Norway is ahead of the world (notice the use of the word "ahead", they still have a number of flaws).

On an economic level almost all nations are as bad for exploitation - I'm not holding any society up as being a pinnacle of perfection.

I'm simply stating that on a social level, the Maldives is primitive & backwards - I never implied the rest of the world was anything significantly better.

I'll also point out, I no where said you couldn't criticise anything anytime you wanted, but thanks for making up crap I didn't say. I also don't remember claiming you were a supporter of anything the USA or UK did, but again, thanks for making crap up.

You implied that my criticism of another culture has a level of cross national judgement - it didn't.

I'm judging off a standard of preventing excessive human suffering, not off the standard of another nation.

It's very simple, it doesn't matter where either of you two(if not the same person) are from, nor that my examples were USA and UK(which are used in almost every example of a "modern" world by everyone who ever mentions the modern world, but lets assume you guys without stating you meant a different country, did infact mean a different' country, going against the absolutely widespread use of the term).

The subject was about lashing a child, by modern I would have thought it was obvious I met a system which does not support such barbarism.

I didn't say it doesn't have it's own forms of barbarism, or it's own set of flaws - all of which I'm equally critical of.

Because you can buy a iphone in any country I could even comprehend people calling a "modern" society, and any number of other goods/products/services, therefore, they advocate the exploitation of billions of poor people to produce material goods, and most countries aside from the UK/USA have done multiple morally questionable things, in their own countries, in other countries.

You are speaking to somebody who doesn't support capitalism for those very reasons, so a bit of a moot point.

I'm allowed to say "The UK is superior than the Maldives morally on the subject of torturing children within the law" - the Maldives is backwards in this regard, as are we on say the subject of our crimnial justice system & pretty much the entire west on econmic points.

Countries that sell Nike's for £80 which are made by kids in third world countries. People could not buy Nike's, and support a brand of shoe whereby the profit goes on real wages in the countries they are made in... but people don't.

I don't buy Nike, again moot point.

THe point of my post and the only way it can be not purposefully taken is, I find it hilarious that people believe their own society to be modern and better, and complain about another society for not being so.

Our society is better, on this subject (the torture of children).

THey think they are modern and doing the right thing and look at the things WE do(whoever we are, where ever that is) as backwards and stupid.

Which is why actions need to be judged off an objective criteria.

The difference being, they harmed this kid, and (too many) small numbers of people with laws I deem barbaric, but I don't compare them and berate them while comparing them to any number of western or modern societys, that treat many more people incredibly badly for nothing other than profit/money/greed.

The nations are not utopian societies without money, they have the same profit/money & greed - along with allowing the torture of children within the law.

I fail to see what point you are even trying to make - just because the people who do it are from another nation, they deserved to be judged by the same objective criteria (as long as the same standard is applied locally - which I agree in most peoples cases isn't - but not in mine).

The modern world is run on every backwards principle that has been around since caveman times, capitalism, self worth, greed, yourself before others, these aren't great things that society should aspire to. The western/modern world exploits and harms many more millions of people than any of the so called "backwards" cultures do, but its ignored by most people.

Most people, this entire post is a massive straw-man & you are arguing against a fictitious person.

If I was captain capitalism & pro-market then I'd understand.

I myself don't do any awful lot to stay away from products produced by exploting people, its fairly hard in the western world as the culture is so pervasive. However I'm also not such a big hypocrit that I can look down on a "backwards" culture and laugh about how much worse it is than my own, or the modern world, or how they have no place in it.

Here we find the key point of your argument.

Translation : I don't care so nobody else must either, but at least it makes me honest.

Well, I'm sorry but you are wrong, don't presume to know my intentions or attitudes on these subjects & ascribe hypocrisy that only exists if the person in question holds the values as you do.

I think they are backwards for their attitudes to women, law, greed, education, etc, I think we(uk, modern society, the western world, the old world, the middle east, the far east, Russia) are all pretty terrible in general.

I can agree here, but some nations are better in some areas.

For example, gay people objectively are going to suffer less in nations with western values.

We are also a society that can be quite closed about our own issues, equally countries such as the Maldives can be very critical internally, for example there is quite a lot of civil unrest intermittently over the last few years, also nominally the Maldives is a democracy with an independant Judiciary. Each culture and society has its own issues with Human Rights, granted by our standards we would consider ourselves to be further along, but then we also have centuries of stability, wealth, universal education and liberalisation to fall back on whereas The Maldives and nations like them are still in their infancy in this regard. 50 lashes deferred until she is 18 seems pretty barbaric to us, but then so does the treatment of juveniles in some Western Prisons and care institutions to me also. Whether extramarital sex should be a matter for the law or not is difficult to judge without considering our own laws on polygamy, gay marriage and other seemingly anachronistic laws....lets not forget it was not so long ago that simply being homosexual was illegal. We should be encouraging change, not trying to enforce our morality, especially when our morality is as subjective, albeit with less open legal justification.

All fair & salient points, but nations don't criticise - individuals do, I'm not guilty by association of our own barbarism or archaic laws.

It's also why we need to use some objective criteria to judge - as moral relativism is useless on a global scale.

I do agree we should be encouraging change, but I'd argue part of that is condemning all forms of caused human suffering - domestic & abroad.