Anyone ever become an atheist after believing?

Yes, that is exactly what I am saying, and indeed it is bold claim, but a claim that Jesus himself made. He said it in John 8:24: "I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am [the one I claim to be], you will indeed die in your sins." So either Jesus was a liar or he's telling the truth. I choose to believe the latter.

However, Christ is not talking about himself in that passage, he is in fact applying Old Testament language (I am He) as being the words of God. This implies that anyone is able to receive the Grace of Salvation, you need not adhere to a very specific belief in Christ but remove the iniquity of remaining in sin, this is rather than the common misconception (I can explain this linguistically if you wish) that it is referring to an implied sin of unbelief. Essentially he is not referring to himself as the messiah, but to the message that he was tasked to bring and illustrate through his sacrifice, again for ALL Mankind, not only those that assume authority through Christianity.

This is not about whether Christ was telling the truth or not, but about your interpretation of scripture and how you apply it to your argument against those who may have different beliefs and understanding from yourself.
 
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Castiel said:
However, Christ is not talking about himself in that passage, he is in fact applying Old Testament language (I am He) as being the words of God.
So he's implying he's a fictional character? Ok cool...

Castiel said:
This implies that anyone is able to receive the Grace of Salvation
Which doesn't exist.

Castiel said:
Essentially he is not referring to himself as the messiah, but to the message that he was tasked to bring and illustrate through his sacrifice, again for ALL Mankind, not only those that assume authority through Christianity.
Had a 3 day nap in a cave, woke up and naffed off to heaven. Massive sacrifice there. Evil continued to exist and nothing ultimately changed as a result of this fictional story. Brilliant. Good job Jesus / utterly powerless God.

0/10, would not pray again.
 
So he's implying he's a fictional character? Ok cool...


Which doesn't exist.


Had a 3 day nap in a cave, woke up and naffed off to heaven. Massive sacrifice there. Evil continued to exist and nothing ultimately changed as a result of this fictional story. Brilliant. Good job Jesus / utterly powerless God.

0/10, would not pray again.

What makes you think that the existence of evil rules out the possibility of God existing?
 
The issue isn't whether he is worthy of worship or not. You seem to imply that because evil exists, God cannot. Why?
You're deliberately ignoring my point. Why would anyone want to pray to a God that allows everything they have ever known, loved and cared about to die in pointless ways? There is nothing good about that God.

If he has the power to stop suffering, and willfully does not prevent it, what kind of a God is that? Not one I'd pray to. He is not on your side.
 
You're deliberately ignoring my point. Why would anyone want to pray to a God that allows everything they have ever known, loved and cared about to die in pointless ways? There is nothing good about that God.

If he has the power to stop suffering, and willfully does not prevent it, what kind of a God is that? Not one I'd pray to.

You are confusing two separate issues here. You initially implied that God can't exist because evil is still present.
 
So he's implying he's a fictional character? Ok cool...


Which doesn't exist.


Had a 3 day nap in a cave, woke up and naffed off to heaven. Massive sacrifice there. Evil continued to exist and nothing ultimately changed as a result of this fictional story. Brilliant. Good job Jesus / utterly powerless God.

0/10, would not pray again.

I don't know why you are quoting me as I am not a Christian and was referencing the subject from a position of someone's interpretation of said scripture. Whether you believe it or not is immaterial to me.
 
Evil is only possible because of free will. Do you wish for God to take away your free will?

You also seem to want your loved ones not to die. I thought you atheists accepted that life is futile and death is the end? What's your problem? Are you wishing for eternal life?
 
Nope, you're ignoring the fact that God isn't worth worshiping if he does exist because he does allow evil to exist. :)

I'm not ignoring anything. You seemed to imply that evil and God couldn't exist together. I was simply enquiring why you held that view.

I have no comment to add on why "God" may or may not be worthy of worship.
 
I don't know why you are quoting me as I am not a Christian and was referencing the subject from a position of someone's interpretation of said scripture. Whether you believe it or not is immaterial to me.
I quoted what you said because it was explaining a position. I don't believe (as you can guess).
 
However, Christ is not talking about himself in that passage, he is in fact applying Old Testament language (I am He) as being the words of God. This implies that anyone is able to receive the Grace of Salvation, you need not adhere to a very specific belief in Christ but remove the iniquity of remaining in sin, this is rather than the common misconception (I can explain this linguistically if you wish) that it is referring to an implied sin of unbelief. Essentially he is not referring to himself as the messiah, but to the message that he was tasked to bring and illustrate through his sacrifice, again for ALL Mankind, not only those that assume authority through Christianity.

This is not about whether Christ was telling the truth or not, but about your interpretation of scripture and how you apply it to your argument against those who may have different beliefs and understanding from yourself.

You've just undermined the whole of Christianity. The whole point of Jesus is that he was to die for the sins of the world. If you reject him you reject God. If you honestly believe Jesus did not refer to himself as the messiah then you are either a) you were warned - gilly
 
Evil is only possible because of free will. Do you wish for God to take away your free will?

You also seem to want your loved ones not to die. I thought you atheists accepted that life is futile and death is the end? What's your problem? Are you wishing for eternal life?

Life is not futile - it is wondrous and beautiful, but when it ends we simply become an electro-chemical reaction that stops.

If eternal life is so great why don't you try to get there sooner...

Also Jason2 - PLEASE explain why you don't believe in Allah, Hecate, Zeus, Mars, Ganesh, Shiva, Rah, Isis etc etc etc.
 
Evil is only possible because of free will. Do you wish for God to take away your free will?

And what twisted form of "Free will" might that be?

1. Worship & Belive in me = Get into Heaven
2. Don't belive in me = Be punished for your sins (even as a new born you have "original sin" so you're stuffed there..)

Not much of a choice there, sounds a bit like religion bullying and frightening people in my book.
 
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You also seem to want your loved ones not to die. I thought you atheists accepted that life is futile and death is the end? What's your problem? Are you wishing for eternal life?

What? Because atheists accept that death is the end, they don't care about it happening to their loved ones?

Are you suggesting that a belief in an afterlife is necessary to experience empathy for others?

Surely the experience is completely the opposite - the acceptance that there is no afterlife only enriches your experience of life and encourages you to enjoy all that it has to offer while you can.
 
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Life is not futile - it is wondrous and beautiful, but when it ends we simply become an electro-chemical reaction that stops.

If eternal life is so great why don't you try to get there sooner...

Also Jason2 - PLEASE explain why you don't believe in Allah, Hecate, Zeus, Mars, Ganesh, Shiva, Rah, Isis etc etc etc.

That would mean life is futile then. How can life have any worth if death is the end and there is no soul or afterlife?

I don't get there any sooner because I cherish the current life God has given me. I also believe no one has the right to take life but God.
 
Evil is only possible because of free will. Do you wish for God to take away your free will?
Why did God make evil in the first place? He can undo it at any point. Assuming he is omnipotent (as the Christian interpretation runs). Why can't we have free will AND no evil? He can just vanish the concept of evil from existence. Overall, either Christianity is a lie, God is evil or God doesn't exist. Take your pick.

You also seem to want your loved ones not to die.
I like them more alive than dead.
I thought you atheists accepted that life is futile and death is the end?
I never said that.
What's your problem?
I don't have one.
Are you wishing for eternal life?
Better than being dead!
 
Why did God make evil in the first place? He can undo it at any point. Assuming he is omnipotent (as the Christian interpretation runs). Why can't we have free will AND no evil? He can just vanish the concept of evil from existence. Overall, either Christianity is a lie, God is evil or God doesn't exist. Take your pick.


I like them more alive than dead.

I never said that.

I don't have one.

Better than being dead!

You keep saying free will is possible without any evil. I am saying SHOW ME HOW. It's simply not possible. A creature unable to do wrong wouldn't be truly free.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=21YuXIVJHdM
 
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