Cypriot Austerity Measures

Tom_ed1987 · 16 Mar 2013 at 20:51

Disgusting savers, they deserve to be so blatantly penalised. Redistribute that wealth yo.

Castiel · 16 Mar 2013 at 20:51

Dolph said:
No, I don't. However, that is consistent with my general position on taxation, whereas others seem to be objecting to this while supporting other types of taxation.

I don't agree with retrospective taxation, this doesn't mean that I disagree with all taxation. It is not inconsistant for someone to object to one form of taxation while supporting taxation on a general principle.

This also seems to be contrary to the EU deposit guarantee that protects EU citizens bank deposits. It clearly doesn't protect them from the EU.

NZB · 16 Mar 2013 at 20:52

This guy has the right idea, parked his bulldozer in front of the bank

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-21813754

Dr House · 16 Mar 2013 at 21:07

Housey said:
Astonishing and incredibly risky move. This will not end well I fear, markets will **** it come Monday I suspect.

I think it could go one of 2 ways.

Drop like a stone or go up as the same will be done to Italian and Spanish people if they do not sort their economy out.

I think the GBP and CHF will get a lot stronger next week against the euro.

aln · 16 Mar 2013 at 21:24

Dolph said:
No, I don't. However, that is consistent with my general position on taxation, whereas others seem to be objecting to this while supporting other types of taxation.

Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't these your opinions:

You're fine with stealing from me via taxes to create a state law and enforcement services which offers you protection and the ability to own property beyond what you can take with your own strength.
You're againt the idea of me stealing from you to create a state health service or welfare services which will allow a better quality of living for the peons who'd probably just take your stuff if it wasn't for the aformentioned laws and enforcement.

Yeah, sure, you're views are more consistent than everyone elses. Not arbitrary at all.

Personally I think it's outrageous. Like many have said, it's ironic that the Government seems to find it acceptable to punish those who have made the "correct choices", but alas I guess it's better than losing everything. Can't see faith in banks being restored for a very long time for these people, they're being screwed over through no fault of their own.

kibblerok · 16 Mar 2013 at 21:31

The house of cards is continuing to fall. There's not enough money in the system for this to end well...

aln · 16 Mar 2013 at 21:40

kibblerok said:
The house of cards is continuing to fall. There's not enough money in the system for this to end well...

Meh thats a load of crap. This entire thing is just another construct designed to steal wealth and power. We're all screwed because everybody owes each other money? So the soltuion is to steal money from others to ensure the debts get paid? The entire system is a joke.

Trifid · 16 Mar 2013 at 21:48

Dolph said:
No, I don't. However, that is consistent with my general position on taxation, whereas others seem to be objecting to this while supporting other types of taxation.

You have some form of control over other types of taxation though. The least of which, as far as I can think of at the moment, is income tax where at least you have a choice to earn less and therefore be taxed less.

I reckon this is going to be used as a argument for leaving the EU when we get our referendum.

dowie · 16 Mar 2013 at 21:55

Muffin` said:
ECHR says:

Article 1 – Protection of property

"Every natural or legal person is entitled to the peaceful enjoyment of his possessions. No one shall be deprived of his possessions except in the public interest and subject to the conditions provided for by law and by the general principles of international law.

The preceding provisions shall not, however, in any way impair the right of a State to enforce such laws as it deems necessary to control the use of property in accordance with the general interest or to secure the payment of taxes or other contributions or penalties."

that last bit is rather relevant don't you think?

Dolph · 16 Mar 2013 at 22:05

aln said:
Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't these your opinions:

You're fine with stealing from me via taxes to create a state law and enforcement services which offers you protection and the ability to own property beyond what you can take with your own strength.

You're againt the idea of me stealing from you to create a state health service or welfare services which will allow a better quality of living for the peons who'd probably just take your stuff if it wasn't for the aformentioned laws and enforcement.

Yeah, sure, you're views are more consistent than everyone elses. Not arbitrary at all.

Personally I think it's outrageous. Like many have said, it's ironic that the Government seems to find it acceptable to punish those who have made the "correct choices", but alas I guess it's better than losing everything. Can't see faith in banks being restored for a very long time for these people, they're being screwed over through no fault of their own.

Given that those aren't my opinions at all, and you just appear to be arguing not against anything I have posted on here, but purely against something you've made up in your own head, I'm not surprised the position seems arbitrary

dowie · 16 Mar 2013 at 22:06

Dolph said:
No, I don't. However, that is consistent with my general position on taxation, whereas others seem to be objecting to this while supporting other types of taxation.

Well yeah... its a rather different form of taxation... taxing a portion of someone income is one thing - taxing assets is rather different...

Dolph · 16 Mar 2013 at 22:07

Trifid said:
You have some form of control over other types of taxation though. The least of which, as far as I can think of at the moment, is income tax where at least you have a choice to earn less and therefore be taxed less.

I reckon this is going to be used as a argument for leaving the EU when we get our referendum.

That's not in any way some form of control. It's more like 'you can hate it or lie back and think of England'...

Dolph · 16 Mar 2013 at 22:08

dowie said:
Well yeah... its a rather different form of taxation... taxing a portion of someone income is one thing - taxing assets is rather different...

We tax assets in this country, council tax, for example, is based on asset value. The proposed mansion taxes continually put forward by Labour and the Lib Dems are also asset taxes.

aln · 16 Mar 2013 at 22:22

Dolph said:
Given that those aren't my opinions at all, and you just appear to be arguing not against anything I have posted on here, but purely against something you've made up in your own head, I'm not surprised the position seems arbitrary

I specifically remember you expressing that taxation is a necessary form of evil the other day. So feel free to express those views, but know that it's pretty much going to be as equally consistent as everybody elses, with the only major difference being where you draw the line. That is of course unless you revet back to your every man for themselves mentality that comes across in the majority of your posts but that doesn't really fly unless you're willing to fight and kill people for your stuff.

Dolph · 16 Mar 2013 at 22:25

aln said:
I specifically remember you expressing that taxation is a necessary form of evil the other day. So feel free to express those views, but know that it's pretty much going to be as equally consistent as everybody elses, with the only major difference being where you draw the line. That is of course unless you revet back to your every man for themselves mentality that comes across in the majority of your posts but that doesn't really fly unless you're willing to fight and kill people for your stuff.

Taxation is a necessary form of evil, just as prisons and the like are, but I have not advocated a law-enforcement only civic model, nor have I advocated that the state should have no role in welfare or healthcare, in fact, I've advocated exactly the opposite, with a universal minimum income guarantee that's offset against tax, and a state that ensures access to healthcare and education. The fact that I favour a competitive provision model (as used with greater success than we have across most of Europe) is irrelevant.

dowie · 16 Mar 2013 at 22:26

Dolph said:
We tax assets in this country, council tax, for example, is based on asset value. The proposed mansion taxes continually put forward by Labour and the Lib Dems are also asset taxes.

Well the council tax is in theory... in reality its still partly a poll tax... a million pound house doesn't pay 20 times more than a 50k house - someone who doesn't own the asset but lives in it & rents it could be liable to pay it...

The mansion tax is however and I also object to that - tis also a good illustration of why taxing assets is wrong... old widowers who have a low income but happen to have a valuable property... even a 1 bedroom basement flat in West London could be liable.
I don't have an issue with taxing assets when people die though.

aln · 16 Mar 2013 at 22:36

Dolph said:
Taxation is a necessary form of evil, just as prisons and the like are, but I have not advocated a law-enforcement civic model, nor have I advocated that the state should have no role in welfare or healthcare, in fact, I've advocated exactly the opposite, with a universal minimum income guarantee that's offset against tax, and a state that ensures access to healthcare and education. The fact that I favour a competitive provision model (as used with greater success than we have across most of Europe) is irrelevant.

You missed the point by focusing on specifics buddy. You pick and choose what taxes are less bad based on preference just like everyone else. Personally I hate the concept asset taxes altogether, I could attempt to validate my opinion by laying out my logic, but essentially it's about as legitimate as "Yeah, I don't like that" just like everyone elses opinion.

For the record though, I will conceed that you have expressed your crazy universal minimum income and probably even said health care model, which is less crazy, but are you seriously arguing you aren't behind property laws?

Dolph · 16 Mar 2013 at 22:39

aln said:
You missed the point by focusing on specifics buddy.

For the record though, I will conceed that you have expressed your crazy universal minimum income and probably even said health care model, which is less crazy, but are you seriously arguing you aren't behind property laws?

I'm very much behind rights, which include, but are by no means limited to, property rights, among the other human rights enshrined in the ECHR (less the exemption on property rights for taxes which renders it meaningless).

olivier renault · 16 Mar 2013 at 23:15

Xordium · 17 Mar 2013 at 03:13

Dolph said:
The fact that I favour a competitive provision model (as used with greater success than we have across most of Europe) is irrelevant.

But you just have to drag it in even though a great number of people on here have shown you are incorrect so many times in the past. It's like arguing with a right wing George Galloway.