New BMW's not like what they once were?

[pugheaven]

What myths? Nobody claims German cars have Jap level reliability. Those of us who like German cars know this only too well.

Then they can't be built as well then i.e. quality, otherwise they're be reliable. Hence my statement earlier...

e.g. you're basing certain things on say dashboard quality plastic yeah? Ok, that's fine, for me, just because when you knock the dash and it gives a thud... or close a door with a thud doesn't necessarily mean it's quality, I think heavy lol... and I'd want quality parts in the engine... not on a dashboard where even my Pug 205 nothing ever went wrong in 7 years of ownership. hence why I'm assuming the engine's are built out of toilet roll giving reliability problems as you state (or suspension or whatever you're referring to by "reliability".

if you're on about "design" and ergonomic layout, then ok, that's a completely different argument...

 

[wingman]

I'd rather have a hard knob that worked than a soft one that didn't.

Or a soft one that works when you need it to

 

[pugheaven]

How do you know the facts back this up?

Every survey ever done? They never go wrong, therefore using quality parts. Anyway, just my opinion... who cares lol.

 

[[TW]Fox]

Then they can't be built as well then i.e. quality, otherwise they're be reliable.

I really don't think you get my point at all. For a start quality is, whilst an important factor in reliability, not the only factor.

For example - a 1.3 litre Ford Ka has a more reliable engine than a similarly aged Audi RS6. Is that because the Ford engine is built much better than the Audi engine? No, it's because the Ford engine is very, very simple and the Audi RS6 engine is very very complicated.

Japanese quality is primarily focused on mechanical reliability. German quality is primarily focusedon the overall feel of the product. This is why a Honda never breaks but has more flimsey bits on the interior, thinner bodypanels etc and why German stuff sometimes goes wrong but has thicker panels, nicer materials inside, etc.

Which is more important to the buyer depends entirely on what they want from a car. In an ideal world you'd have both but it seems we don't live in such a world, sadly.

In an ideal world Honda would merge with Audi and knock out effortlessly reliable cars with top notch quality interiors

 

[AndrewNR]

Then they can't be built as well then i.e. quality, otherwise they're be reliable. Hence my statement earlier...

e.g. you're basing certain things on say dashboard quality plastic yeah? Ok, that's fine, for me, just because when you knock the dash and it gives a thud... or close a door with a thud doesn't necessarily mean it's quality, I think heavy lol... and I'd want quality parts in the engine... not on a dashboard where even my Pug 205 nothing ever went wrong in 7 years of ownership. hence why I'm assuming the engine's are built out of toilet roll giving reliability problems as you state (or suspension or whatever you're referring to by "reliability".

if you're on about "design" and ergonomic layout, then ok, that's a completely different argument...

They use better quality parts, they are perhaps not assembled to as high a standard regarding reliability. The parts themselves still retain their better quality trait.

I drive a Jap car by the way so I'm not defending Fox and his BMW ways.

 

[[TW]Fox]

Plus most of the reliability issues are related to particularly high specification, complex and often new technologies*. Reliability aside, a German diesel engine is simply a better, more advanced, more powerful and more efficient product than a Japanese diesel engine, for example.

The more complexity you add, sadly the more scope there are for problems.

* And also some really basic stuff too, seriously BMW, cooling systems. How hard can it be not to use plastic bits everywhere

 

[mrk]

OMG I love this...I want one

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[]https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-...e-3-full.jpg.resource.1361964991812.jpg[/IMG]

Lol, Probably the ugliest rear end ever? It looked bad on the 5GT but this is just something else.

Anyway, IMO new BMWs don't have that heavy weight feel to anything inside the cabin any more. Everything is lightweight and even on premium models (7 series) there are layers of cheap scratchy plastic (look around the panel trim section surrounding the B pillars running along the seatbelt holder lower sections and kick plates etc). On the E39 and E46 these bits are nicer feeling plastic and soft matte, same as the dash that doesn't sound hollow when touched/tapped.

 

[axer]

We've got a 2013 Audi (S4) and a 2012 BMW (X5) and the Audi cabin is a far superior place to be, its more comfortable and more stylish IMO (and my wifes).

That said though, BMW are still solid cars and very well engineered just a little dated in terms of styling etc.

 

[Housey]

Every survey ever done? They never go wrong, therefore using quality parts. Anyway, just my opinion... who cares lol.

Opinions hold little weight with me without experience.

Ive had jap cars too, got one on the drive right now in fact and its had more go wrong with it than my wife's previous Audi, which is 1 thing so hardly a biggy, an emissions sensor that took 6 weeks to replace and involved me firing a rocket up the dealers backside to get fixed. I take issue as I've just told you Ive had over 10 BMW's and loads of other cars an in my experience the BMW's were more reliable than most of my other cars and significantly nicer experiences, thought my RS4 was the worst, bloody thing was problems galore. I had a Sierra that blew an engine after the cam came lose in the engine, I had a Honda loan car that had more dashboard lights that your average Taxi and had pre-ignition only better by a Vauxhall Cavalier I had once.

My experience is every survey does not match my personal experience and I am happy my post history shows I am nothing if not objective. Have you seen my 530D thread, hardly bigging up the BMW perfection. However, BMW builds a better quality interior and driving car than most other companies and in the main, in my experience, they work just as well as the best. People love to knock German cars, I've seen loads of people with the "you'd never get me in one of those crappy German cars", the best was some bloke trying to tell me his Chrysler thing was better than my 5 series, once of those ones you see around US airforce bases, not even a proper one. Terrible thing but he would know no better, he'd never own a German car because he just knew they were crap....a survey told him.

 

[easyrider]

Having just px my 2003 e46 in for an e90 just wanted to say the E46 barely missed a beat, other than wear and tear items and one coil pack there wasnt anything wrong with it, lets just hope the e90 can be as reliable somehow i doubt it but as a car imo its far superior

How much was the E90 and what did you get for the E46?

 

[easyrider]

Nope, but bought 2 for people who worked for me and been in them and driven them. I'm not a Lexus sort, but the 200 ones were not a patch on the 3 series. Didn't drive as well, weren't as nice inside, didn't have the same quality of plastics. I did loan a 300 one some years back, nice car but no 5 series, I had a 528i at the time so direct comparison. I did have loads of Pugs too and Xantia like Fox so I've driven REAL quality.

I hated the lexus 200 they gave me when my E46 went in for rear bumper

 

[pugheaven]

Opinions hold little weight with me without experience.

Ive had jap cars too, got one on the drive right now in fact and its had more go wrong with it than my wife's previous Audi, which is 1 thing so hardly a biggy, an emissions sensor that took 6 weeks to replace and involved me firing a rocket up the dealers backside to get fixed. I take issue as I've just told you Ive had over 10 BMW's and loads of other cars an in my experience the BMW's were more reliable than most of my other cars and significantly nicer experiences, thought my RS4 was the worst, bloody thing was problems galore. I had a Sierra that blew an engine after the cam came lose in the engine, I had a Honda loan car that had more dashboard lights that your average Taxi and had pre-ignition only better by a Vauxhall Cavalier I had once.

My experience is every survey does not match my personal experience and I am happy my post history shows I am nothing if not objective. Have you seen my 530D thread, hardly bigging up the BMW perfection. However, BMW builds a better quality interior and driving car than most other companies and in the main, in my experience, they work just as well as the best. People love to knock German cars, I've seen loads of people with the "you'd never get me in one of those crappy German cars", the best was some bloke trying to tell me his Chrysler thing was better than my 5 series, once of those ones you see around US airforce bases, not even a proper one. Terrible thing but he would know no better, he'd never own a German car because he just knew they were crap....a survey told him.

That's also the point I made earlier, we could get people on here saying every Fiat THEY'VE had was bomb proof etc etc and I agree, you kinda have to take some surveys with a pinch of salt like I said... however, over time, over survey after survey... we all know that if you buy a Toyota for example, you're gonna be pretty safe in the knowledge it'll be reliable. All I was saying is, I've seen nothing to show BMW reliability... however this isn't what the OP was saying I believe he was saying around the the BMW interiors are for example and I think FOX's opinion on the actual build/presentation which is cool.

Like me, I had my 205 for 7 years, did it break down? No, broke 2 driveshafts but that was only because I was *****ing around with the gnine and lowering etc, however otherwise, engine/body/suspension it was perfect (AND THIS IS A PEUGEOT A CAR THAT EVEN I RANK AS ONE OF THE WORST MANUFACTURERS IN THE WORLD, apart from my PUG ). But then again, so was my Mitsubishi and so was my Mazda Xedos 6... the worst for what I'd class as reliability was the Saab Aero 93... and the "build quality" inside was the best of all the car I had BUT it let me down the most. So to me, the build quality wasn't as good as appeared.

I mean I don't like BMW's as such, YET I've got a soft spot for M3's and M5's etc for what they are and represent... driving excellence (apparently lol). However they're no Alfa or TVR in the looks department.

 

[Housey]

That's also the point I made earlier, we could get people on here saying ever fiat THEY'VE had was bomb proof etc etc and I agree, you kinda have to take some surveys with a pinch of salt like I said... however, over time, over survey after suvery... we all know that if you buy a Toyota for example, you're gonna be pretty safe in the knowledge it'll bereliable. All I was saying is, I've seen nothing to show BMW reliability... however this isn't what the OP was saying I believe he was saying around the the BMW interiors are for example and I think FOX's opinion on the actualy build./presentation which is cool.

Like me, I had my 205 for 7 years, did it break down? No, broke 2 driveshafts but that was only because I was *****ing around with the gnine and lowering etc, however engine/body/suspension it was perfect. But then again, so was my Misubishi and so was my Mazda Xedos 6... the worst for what I'd class as reliability was the Saab Aero 93... and the "build quality" inside was the best of all the car I had BUT it let me down the most. So to me, the build quality wasn't as good as appeared.

If you put the BMW/Audi/Mercedes demographic into the Honda/Toyota cars and vise versa I suspect your surveys results may follow the drivers, that is my point. Driving styles, journeys, mindset and perception all have influence in these things, that's my point. No question the Japs make a reliable motor, but in my experience these days most people do.

 

[easyrider]

My Vauxhaul Astra was a cracking car. I bought from a scrap yard for 250 quid had it 5 years from the age of 18 and the only problem I had with it was when the engine fell out of it at Scarborough swimming baths

I sold it that night after a tow home for 25 quid.

 

[easyrider]

If you put the BMW/Audi/Mercedes demographic into the Honda/Toyota cars and vise versa I suspect your surveys results may follow the drivers, that is my point. Driving styles, journeys, mindset and perception all have influence in these things, that's my point. No question the Japs make a reliable motor, but in my experience these days most people do.

My dad has a Toyota....horrible tinny thing but its been reliable.

 

[AndrewNR]

German cars use more expensive materials and thus can be perceived as being better quality. As Fox has mentioned German cars tend to extract more power/efficiency from their engines probably at the expense of reliability.

No one is arguing a 1.0 Honda Jazz is more reliable than a BMW 320d, but the parts used to build the BMW will be better quality (more expensive).

Whether you deem more expensive as better is subjective.

 

[GTRacer]

Lol, Probably the ugliest rear end ever? It looked bad on the 5GT but this is just something else.

Anyway, IMO new BMWs don't have that heavy weight feel to anything inside the cabin any more. Everything is lightweight and even on premium models (7 series) there are layers of cheap scratchy plastic (look around the panel trim section surrounding the B pillars running along the seatbelt holder lower sections and kick plates etc). On the E39 and E46 these bits are nicer feeling plastic and soft matte, same as the dash that doesn't sound hollow when touched/tapped.

I'm not fond of the 5GT's looks myself, but it's very nice inside, surprisingly wide feeling especially with the pano roof specced. Felt bigger than the X5 and 7 my father and I looked at too. The hatch is a bit pointless though, from what I remember it looked smaller than the 7's, although a saloon style boot still wouldn't work due to how big the greenhouse is.

 

[Housey]

I mean I don't like BMW's as such, YET I've got a soft spot for M3's and M5's etc for what they are and represent... driving excellence (apparently lol). However they're no Alfa or TVR in the looks department.

Ive had both Alfas and a TVR and they were utter niggle fest's, the Alfa's dealers were quite the most atrocious experience I've had in motoring, especially the one in Cheltenham who were liars!

 

[Housey]

My dad has a Toyota....horrible tinny thing but its been reliable.

I drove the IQ thing the other week, just no on so many levels, awful thing.

 

[pugheaven]

Ive had both Alfas and a TVR and they were utter niggle fest's, the Alfa's dealers were quite the most atrocious experience I've had in motoring, especially the one in Cheltenham who were liars!

Agree on that fella, we had a Alfa 147... **** me, brake light's going... lights on dash... little things, nothign major but constant myther with something wrong every month lol... I'd never own one again BUT they look lovely and they have a great sound with the twin spark. TVR's are a nightmare BUT the Cerbera 4.5 will still be mine at some point as it's stunning... and I don't care about it costing, it's just a love thing...

What TVR did you have mate?