Strict Liability Law - Drivers to be auto blamed for all accidents with cyclists

[mothermachine]

Got any stats that they cause accidents?

And don't try to claim a bike just as likely to kill someone as a car; I can assure you that is not the case. Yes, bikes can kill, but it's very, very unlikely.

TfL studies show that about 17% of cyclists jump red lights (17% too many in my opinion) but so do about 4% of motor vehicles (motorbikes jumps reds the least apparently). However, cars accounted for 75% of accidents caused by a failure to stop at red that resulted in an injury or death.

Cars are substantially more dangerous, to claim otherwise is misguided.

This thread has reminded me to track down the 1992 DfT study into drivers attitudes towards cyclists. It makes great reading. Loads of stuff about how cyclists are treated as an 'out group' and so drivers project bad behaviour onto them whilst projecting good behaviour onto their own group. Also, almost all the drivers in the study claimed they were more considerate around cyclists than the average driver.

I never said bicycles cause MORE accidents than cars. That would be ridiculous.

I never said that bicycles are MORE dangerous than cars. Again - that would be ridiculous.

 

[mothermachine]

Got any stats that they cause accidents?

And don't try to claim a bike just as likely to kill someone as a car; I can assure you that is not the case. Yes, bikes can kill, but it's very, very unlikely.

TfL studies show that about 17% of cyclists jump red lights (17% too many in my opinion) but so do about 4% of motor vehicles (motorbikes jumps reds the least apparently). However, cars accounted for 75% of accidents caused by a failure to stop at red that resulted in an injury or death.

Cars are substantially more dangerous, to claim otherwise is misguided.

This thread has reminded me to track down the 1992 DfT study into drivers attitudes towards cyclists. It makes great reading. Loads of stuff about how cyclists are treated as an 'out group' and so drivers project bad behaviour onto them whilst projecting good behaviour onto their own group. Also, almost all the drivers in the study claimed they were more considerate around cyclists than the average driver.




You definitely don't cycle. At around 15-20mph the wind noise is sufficient that you can't hear the average car engine anyway.

You think it's ok for a cyclist to wear headphones? Seriously?

 

[[DOD]Asprilla]

I never said bicycles cause MORE accidents than cars. That would be ridiculous.

I never said that bicycles are MORE dangerous than cars. Again - that would be ridiculous.

No, you said 'A thin, light bicycle is just as effective a killing machine as a car and don't kid yourself it's not.'

Are you sure that's what you meant to say?

 

[grudas]

Again you've missed my point mate. It's been made. Yes I hate sharing the road with cyclists. The vast majority I come across:

1) can't keep up with the pace of car traffic, so they either slow everyone down or they move over to the pavement edge to let cars past, but then drivers have no idea if they're going to suddenly pull out or whizz in-between cars (which they often do). - i get your point here but it looks like you're missing one.. its pedal powered and keeping steady 30mph/20mph is quite hard 90% of cyclists i met on the road can't keep steady 15mph and its ok.. this is where we can blame our road infrastructure and not the cyclists.

2) rarely signal to let drivers know their intensions if you're over taking a cyclist you'll be leaving enough space for it to avoid a pothole etc.. if you're not then you're behind one and that shouldn't matter.

3) regularly don't wear helmets its up to the cyclist to decide if a helmet is something that they feel the need for or not.

4) routinely jump red lights empty crossings etc are fine, junctions i agree with you its a dumb thing to do.

5) don't give way at roundabouts or junctions a cyclist should IMO fallow the same line cars do, the fact that they never had to pass a driving test is why they have no idea how to take a roundabout - i agree with you on this point.

6) ride with HEADPHONES on..... (I see this so often it's quite scary) you or i don't know the volume of the earphones it might be really low and so they can hear the things behind them, i ride with one earphone in and other out so i can hear the road/cars around me.

There are more but you get the picture.

 

[mothermachine]

No, you said 'A thin, light bicycle is just as effective a killing machine as a car and don't kid yourself it's not.'

Are you sure that's what you meant to say?

Ok "can be". We're not talking about which is going to hurt more if it ploughs into you... the point I made is that a bicycle can cause a lot of trouble without even hitting anything/anyone.

 

[rogan]

Again you've missed my point mate. It's been made. Yes I hate sharing the road with cyclists. The vast majority I come across:

1) can't keep up with the pace of car traffic, so they either slow everyone down or they move over to the pavement edge to let cars past, but then drivers have no idea if they're going to suddenly pull out or whizz in-between cars (which they often do).

2) rarely signal to let drivers know their intensions

3) regularly don't wear helmets

4) routinely jump red lights

5) don't give way at roundabouts or junctions

6) ride with HEADPHONES on..... (I see this so often it's quite scary)

There are more but you get the picture.

Wish people would stop posting about helmets.

Seriously its not your concern, wether a cyclist is or isn't wearing a helmet.

and as for point 1? are you for real? not all cyclists can cruise at 30MPH mate, and commuting to work often takes you on actual roads funnily enough, if your scared of a cycling 'weaving' into you as you overtake then your overtaking far far too close, and thats your problem, not the cyclists.

 

[One More Solo]

Again you've missed my point mate. It's been made. Yes I hate sharing the road with cyclists. The vast majority I come across:

1) can't keep up with the pace of car traffic, so they either slow everyone down or they move over to the pavement edge to let cars past, but then drivers have no idea if they're going to suddenly pull out or whizz in-between cars (which they often do).

2) rarely signal to let drivers know their intensions

3) regularly don't wear helmets

4) routinely jump red lights

5) don't give way at roundabouts or junctions

6) ride with HEADPHONES on..... (I see this so often it's quite scary)

There are more but you get the picture.

A bicycle is as dangerous as a car, that's my new favourite ridiculous comment. Thanks.

1) There is ample space on the roads for both cars, cyclists and other road users and the speed limit is a maximum, not a recommended minimum. I also don't complain about all those cars sat in traffic that hold me up on the way to work because they can't keep up with me.

2) I think you'll find that just as many drivers don't bother using their indicators and know nothing about lane discipline - pay a bit more attention next time you're out and about.

3) Makes no difference to you unless you're planning on knocking someone off.

4) I'll give you this one and the police should enforce this more strongly, but in turn they should also be looking at drivers who use bike lanes illegally or see the ASL as an extension of their own road space. I was almost knocked off this morning by a dozy woman that pulled into the clearly marked ASL while the lights were red because she was so desperate to join the queue of cars on the other side of the junction. I think some (certainly not all by any means) cyclists jump red lights because they feel safer getting a jump on the cars behind them. I don't do it myself and this doesn't excuse the idiots that do it because they're impatient *****s.

5) Drivers do this too and also fail to understand the road system. I had a woman trying to give way to her left on a roundabout this morning because I was on a bike - WTF?

6) I never ride with headphones, but if you're sitting in a car with the radio on how much ambient noise can you hear? Very little I'd suggest. That's before you even get started on people using their phones/iPods etc in traffic.

People that "hate" sharing the road with cyclists are just one step above pondlife really. We are vulnerable and generally inoffensive road users yet get an inordinate amount of abuse by obsessed motorists - maybe I should create a thread every time I'm cycling or driving about idiots in cars? I could fill pages but I don't: I'm realistic that there are idiots in all walks of life and I have to be aware that I'm sharing the road with some of them.

 

[BuffetSlayer]

empty crossings etc are fine, junctions i agree with you its a dumb thing to do.

Admittedly I have not read the HC in some time, but can you direct me to the part where it says that passing through a red light if the crossing is empty is acceptable (and legal)? I always thought cyclists had to obey the same highway rules as cars in respect to lights, zebra crossings etc etc.

I'm finding it hard to believe the HC says it is OK, but accept I may be behind the times on my HC knowledge.

Thanks

 

[One More Solo]

Ok "can be". We're not talking about which is going to hurt more if it ploughs into you... the point I made is that a bicycle can cause a lot of trouble without even hitting anything/anyone.

So can a pedestrian - we should ban people. They're lightweight (OK, SOME are) killing machines!!!1111

 

[One More Solo]

Admittedly I have not read the HC in some time, but can you direct me to the part where it says that passing through a red light if the crossing is empty is acceptable (and legal)? I always thought cyclists had to obey the same highway rules as cars in respect to lights, zebra crossings etc etc.

I'm finding it hard to believe the HC says it is OK, but accept I may be behind the times on my HC knowledge.

Thanks

Can I just point out that I don't agree with jumping red lights full stop?

Thanks

 

[grudas]

Admittedly I have not read the HC in some time, but can you direct me to the part where it says that passing through a red light if the crossing is empty is acceptable (and legal)? I always thought cyclists had to obey the same highway rules as cars in respect to lights, zebra crossings etc etc.

I'm finding it hard to believe the HC says it is OK, but accept I may be behind the times on my HC knowledge.

Thanks

i didn't say it was legal did i? i said it wasn't dangerous IMO i do this all the time.. bite me if you want to

 

[BuffetSlayer]

i didn't say it was legal did i? i said it wasn't dangerous IMO i do this all the time.. bite me if you want to

That depends, do you taste like something tasty? I like Haribo, do you taste of that?!

I think that jumping any red lights is a no no. Or at least it should be. Whether you perceive it to be dangerous or not is irrelevant. Rules are rules, and the fact that some cyclists feel it is ok to flaunt them is indicative of the double standards with which they treat the highway code.

Do you think it is ok to go the wrong way down a one way street too?

Admitting that you think it is ok to flaunt the HC is not going to help your case to convince motorists to treat you with more respect.

Just saying

 

[grudas]

That depends, do you taste like something tasty? I like Haribo, do you taste of that?!

I think that jumping any red lights is a no no. Or at least it should be. Whether you perceive it to be dangerous or not is irrelevant. Rules are rules, and the fact that some cyclists feel it is ok to flaunt them is indicative of the double standards with which they treat the highway code.

Do you think it is ok to go the wrong way down a one way street too?

Admitting that you think it is ok to flaunt the HC is not going to help your case to convince motorists to treat you with more respect.

Just saying

its a no no when i see people crossing, when its a junction etc.. when its a red light with crossing and no people are actually crossing the road i slowly crawl through it.. and even then i probably stop at 50% of them.. i know what you're talking about and yes a LOT of cyclists ignore red lights even i shake my head sometimes so i can understand the drivers

i don't expect drivers to respect me more.. they can't respect each other in the first place

 

[robj20]

Admittedly I have not read the HC in some time, but can you direct me to the part where it says that passing through a red light if the crossing is empty is acceptable (and legal)? I always thought cyclists had to obey the same highway rules as cars in respect to lights, zebra crossings etc etc.

I'm finding it hard to believe the HC says it is OK, but accept I may be behind the times on my HC knowledge.

Thanks

I think your getting the law mixed up with the highway code, going through a red light is not illegal.

 

[[DOD]Asprilla]

You think it's ok for a cyclist to wear headphones? Seriously?

Yes. Try sticking your head our of your car window at 20mph and see how much you can hear. You can't really hear cars when you are cycling along, the wind noise is too great. Also, last time I checked, the deaf weren't barred from cycling.

I think your getting the law mixed up with the highway code, going through a red light is not illegal.

Really? Under what circumstances? I know you can go on flashing amber when there is no-one on the crossing, but not on red.

 

[quickshot89]

This is another shocking example, first 30 seconds should be enough for anyone

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6qycF0raqpg

 

[One More Solo]

I think your getting the law mixed up with the highway code, going through a red light is not illegal.

I'm pretty sure going through a red light is illegal, hence it being enforceable with fines and penalty points.

Another point, I would imagine that the proportion of drivers that break the speed limit routinely is similar to the number of cyclists that go through red lights. In the motors forum recently there were pages and pages of posts defending a Porsche driver who was clocked at over 100mph passing a group of learning motorcyclists because, despite being illegal, it was safe due to the capabilities of his car to complete the passing maneuever as quickly as possible. I'm inclined to agree.

As grudas has pointed out, there are instances where it would be safe to go through a red light despite it being illegal.

What are the odds that some of those posters defending the Porsche driver are frothing at the mouth about cyclists in this thread...?

 

[BuffetSlayer]

I think your getting the law mixed up with the highway code, going through a red light is not illegal.

Hmmm, yes I think you might be right, I'm getting confused. So why do the police give you a £60 fine and 3 points if they catch you going through one in a car? (Seeing as they are to uphold the law)

You can go to court for it and receive fixed penalties, so surely it is an offence (IE breach of law)?

See HERE

Cheers

 

[Deleted member 66701]

Some cyclists are morons.

Some motorists are morons.

Some cyclists causes accidents.

Some motorists cause accidents.

Some cyclists disobey the highway code.

Some motorists disobey the highway code.

Proposed "guilty until proven innocent" law is stupid.

People just need to be nice to each other.

End of thread.

 

[[DOD]Asprilla]

Proposed "guilty until proven innocent" law is stupid.

Stupid is a strong word. It promotes the idea that those most likely to cause injury or loss of life take more care around those more vulnerable than them.

It works well in a lot of other countries and yes there would be unfortunately cases of people being found liable when they aren't; I'd be interested to see (though there are probably no figures by the nature of the query) how many people are incorrectly found liable under the current law and the proposed structure.