Trans woman want to fight biological women in MMA?
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Soldato
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If it's just about bone thickness then surely they should stop mixed race fighting too?
This is a blurred line and will be more and more blurred as time goes on
In sure the strongest man will always own the strongest woman
This person is biologically a guy
But I do believe in equal rights etc
Where do you draw the line? Especially with genetic enhancement and when that becomes mainstream
For me its not fair simply due to the facts of bone/strength, but of course there are different degrees of sex differentiation.. Some people are more Male or female than others
It's not easy, but I still say 75% wrong to let them fight as a woman
As the graph above shows.. Where do you draw the line? Sex like we have now, race.. Nothing is perfect, we all know different races make for better swimmers, runners etc
More I think about it the more I am 50:50
In sure the strongest man will always own the strongest woman
This person is biologically a guy
But I do believe in equal rights etc
Where do you draw the line? Especially with genetic enhancement and when that becomes mainstream
For me its not fair simply due to the facts of bone/strength, but of course there are different degrees of sex differentiation.. Some people are more Male or female than others
It's not easy, but I still say 75% wrong to let them fight as a woman
As the graph above shows.. Where do you draw the line? Sex like we have now, race.. Nothing is perfect, we all know different races make for better swimmers, runners etc
More I think about it the more I am 50:50
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Caporegime
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Thats all very logical but in society a muscle bound 6ft dude hitting a 5'5 weak MAN is seen entirely differently to the same person hitting a 5'10 women who is physically stronger than the smaller man.
You're right, we shouldn't let huge guys get in the ring with tiny guys, in terms of safety and in terms of sport its never going to be a fair fight. But people talking about women beating aren't talking about it like that, its in terms of the societal taboo that is hitting women being completely unacceptable while hitting another man is seen as much more acceptable. LIkewise a woman can hit a man, but if a man defends himself and hits her, everyone is suddenly on the womans side.
While its the same act, this is two entirely different arguments being made.
As for what his background is, meh, bone density does actually change pretty significantly with different hormone levels, the bone density of people aging and I think women post menopause changes quite hugely.
THe real complexity, as someone picked up on those having HRT in MMA, is what is "normal", and what is fair, and what is deemed acceptable?
If one man naturally has testosterone levels that enable him to be much stronger than any other athlete, and his higher natural testosterone levels than others who cheat by taking extra testosterone, is that fair, should he be excluded? What about the female runner from, I forget where, somewhere in Africa that look like a man largely because she has essentially a male hormone profile?
There is no fair, while he is a man who has chosen to do this, there are other women who have man like hormone levels and end up being a huge *****, who in general will be very unfair for other women with "normal" hormone levels to fight.
Should someone who gets into fighting as a career, who half way through gets an illness that cripples their hormone function be punished and unable to supplement back to what are deemed normal levels, and then again we're back to what is normal, what is fair.
Its all a murky area, for me I would go with, he's a man, its most fair to put him in with men fighters. If he was a smaller man with a more feminine body who had the op I might think differently, but he's got a very many build and that is an unfair advantage.
I also have no problem with people taking testosterone to get to a predefined "normal" level if they have seriously low levels, not least because ignore the sport, really low testosterone levels can absolutely and MASSIVELY effect your day to day life, low testosterone is linked to numerous health problems, depression, lack of energy, it can destroy your life and someone shouldn't have to give up a career they've worked hard for or carry on at a huge disadvantage and in an unhealthy state because of some issue they aren't producing enough testosterone.
Well yes.. why do you think some blokes are naturally more laid back and others are more highly strung?
The point I'm trying to make is that people with higher levels of male hormones develop naturally into stronger physique and more aggressive attitude. These people tend to become boxers rather than artists.
Not necessarily. I have high levels of testosterone, so started packing on mass when I was young without doing weights, and whilst I can be an arse at times, I'm actually very laid back, more so than anyone I know.
Interestingly, my mum is the most aggressive person I know and she's tiny. Not even clearing 5 foot and very light.
So first hand experience, and it says that being highly strung or laid back isn't necessarily to do with testosterone.
scientific evidence says otherwise.
males have different muscle structure than women that make them stronger, especially in upper body strength. The muscle fibres themselves are thicker.
although there is conflicting evidence on the internet, ive seen scientific papers that say male muscles are more powerful and suffer less fatigue.
testosterone plays a large part but it isn't the only factor.
also remember that his whole life he has had much larger amounts of testosterone which has developed his muscle tissue in a superior way to women.
scientific evidence can only talk about the general...about the average. who is to say that a specific biological female fighter didnt have a higher test level than the transgender, who may have had an unusually low level of test for most of her life? Whether it be a natural hormone thing or via injections.
i mean to my untrained eye, the biological women on the right of this pic looks the superior physical specimen in every aspect.
its also worth noting that women who have fought her state that they didnt notice anything in her performance that would suggest she was born a man. Her punches and kicks werent out of the ordinary etc.
I think that comes down more to psychology than physics, and in an uncontrolled environment.
Put 500 world class heavy weight boxers up against 500 world class phantom weight boxers, playing by official rules, and see how many phantom weights win...
scientific evidence can only talk about the general...about the average. who is to say that a specific biological female fighter didnt have a higher test level than the transgender, who may have had an unusually low level of test for most of her life? Whether it be a natural hormone thing or via injections.
i mean to my untrained eye, the biological women on the right of this pic looks the superior physical specimen in every aspect.
its also worth noting that women who have fought her state that they didnt notice anything in her performance that would suggest she was born a man. Her punches and kicks werent out of the ordinary etc.
Of course nature throws out different types of people, its called mutation/natural selection. There will be some women who are naturally very strong, also some men who are naturally weak in relative terms of build.
That's why boxing for example is divided not only by sex but by weight.
The issue here is what constitutes a fair competition, and how complicated would it be to implement, an ex-man fighting women of the same weight? an ex woman on steroids fighting men of the same weight? it would become too complicated to define what's fair very quickly, competitive sport may as well just be abolished.
fair point - still, (s)he would have had an unfair starting point.
its a tricky situation and just doesn't seem fair to me.
They have weight classes in MMA.
For people complaining about this, would they also want bone density and testosterone level classes as well?
And what is your experience in the field?
Soldato
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I thought I'd gone mad and actually looked up phantom weight to see if it was some really light weight class of 118lbs or less!
Most (good) boxers aren't aggressive though and I'm not convinced abnormally high levels of testosterone are helpful for the kind of physique a boxer wants (i.e. not a body builder). Some nutters are just so good they rise to the top but most fighters need control and discipline to succeed. I also wouldn't assume the link between testosterone and aggression is that simple.
I guess what I'm saying is these things are complex with very few hard rules and a huge natural variation, and as such I'll trust the medical professionals and researchers who have made this their lifes work.
I'd be pretty stupid to rely on my own prejudices and fears in the face of such knowledge and expertise, although I certainly acknowledge them.