Soldato
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I understand this, the problem is that even after all the surgery the suicide rate is extremely high.
Trans woman want to fight biological women in MMA?
- Thread starter Craterloads
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Yep...and i think they need to continue some kind of psych treatment even after any surgery.
Either you really are that ignorant of the subject and you haven't read my posts so you're making stuff up, which would be sad or you're trolling, in which case 7/10 not bad.
Either way, your posts have nothing to do with me or with sex changes.
I'll repeat myself again, in case you really do think that your posts are in any way relevant. I'll do it in simple points.
1) A sex change is not butchery. It is not "just cut away the problem". You have made that up. It isn't even just surgery, since there's a year of psychological work beforehand. You have just ignored that.
2) I do not and have not advocated that sex changes be allowed because they're the cheapest thing to do. You have made that up.
3) You're advocating that the only effective treatment for a medical issue be witheld because you don't understand what it is. It is you who are not displaying an example of social conscience.
Soldato
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Are you autistic? Did you think I was speaking literally about butchery. I was referring to your point.
and then you enforce this point, again.
When you state such things which money is a large factor....
I understand it that's why I object.
None, is that ok? Or do we now need to be an expert on a subject before we can have an opinion about it.
Well, your commenting on something you clearly know nothing about, and are very wrong about.... so, yea, it would probably help if you knew something about what you were talking about before you started spouting your terrible opinions off about it.
If you don't know anything about something, why would you comment?!
I have worked within the LGBT field and have a good friend who is trans.
I am also part of the local MMA scene.
This topic comes under 2 of my activities, LGBT rights and MMA.
A lot of medical professionals have, and most have claimed its fine.
The arguments about her specific bone density don't hold up because there are plenty of women out there with more Testosterone and higher bone density than cismales, and we don't start creating different classes for people based on that.
Calling it butchery is pretty offensive for a start, which does indeed indicate your complete arrogance on the subject.
Clearly not, because you keep referring to it as butchery. But please, go on, what level of understanding of it do you have, are you a surgeon or psychologist of some sort?
There's no point in trying to get in to it, especially not with people like Hurfdurf, where you have to be completely accepting of something otherwise you're an awful ignorant person.
As I've said before, I don't feel that a person can become another gender, in so much as that I don't accept that a man can become a woman and the other way around.
That is however completely aside from my views on they should be allowed to do anything that they feel necessary so long as it doesn't impede on the rights of others, whether I, or anyone else thinks it's madness.
But to say you don't accept that a person who has had a sex change has actually changed gender is an issue of ignorance, is itself highly ignorant.
Does that not strike you as slightly whappy?
Man wanting to become a woman, ok, but in this context? for reals? white coat time I think...
Soldato
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Clearly, when such high levels of suicide even after a year(s) of talking with therapist. Post Ops' are still killing themselves surgery, is not the answer to many of the cases.
Soldato
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I didn't say that chap
I didn't say that chap
I know, it was a comment on the people who act like that, that you have to accept everything otherwise you're ignorant.
Soldato
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Yeah I hate that too!
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You two stop it, you're being ignorant
You used the word. It isn't necessary that you used it completely literally. When it's not used literally, it has negative connotations. I'm sure you're aware of that. When referring to surgery as butchery, you are disparaging either the surgery itself or the competence of a surgeon when referring to a specific case. Since you weren't referring to a specific case, you were disparaging the entire idea of the surgery in very strong terms.
The point in question being that a sex change is currently the only effective treatment for gender dysphoria. That doesn't mean it's a perfect treatment, only that it's the best available treatment.
Indeed I do.
I also note that you have no counter-argument to it.
Feel free to give details of any other treatment you think is effective.
No, I did not. That's your imagination again.
I mentioned it once, as an aside and very specifically in the context of whether it should be available on the NHS. A legitimate reason why treatment might not be given on the NHS is that it isn't cost-effective. Resources are finite and some consideration has to be given to cost. My point was that this doesn't apply to a sex change, as it is cost-effective.
I disagree, since you think it's butchery and just cutting away the problem (although sometimes the appropriate treatment is just cutting away the problem, that's not what a sex change procedure is).
Also, you offer no alternative. I've been waiting for you to describe the treatment you think is greatly superior. Waiting, but not expecting it to happen.
How do you define sex, and why?
People can obviously change gender, and gender obviously changes from place to place and from time to time, so I'm assuming that you're talking about sex (biological) and not gender (social and psychological, i.e. masculinity and femininity). "Gender" is widely used for both nowadays, which confuses the issue and reinforces stereotyping.
It's a serious question, because it's much less clear than it might first seem and it's obviously at the core of changing sex. I am interested in how you rationally define sex in a such a way that it's unchangeable and still an accurate definition, because I think that's impossible to do.
I don't see the point in trying to properly define gender, but that wasn't my point.
My point was that I don't see surgery to change an outward appearance means you become what your outward appearance suggests.
Sex would be the more accurate term, I agree, but gender is used in quite a few different ways as you have suggested. Personally, I dislike the stereotypical gender roles placed upon people, that people often get criticised for when they don't adhere to it.
Something I have mentioned before, which is completely mundane and a non-issue, I have had people act funny with me because I have long hair. I really don't care, but I find it amusing. A few weeks ago I was at a super market, and I noticed some guy making an issue of it to his friends, so I said "what was that?" and they promptly hurried off with red faces.
Again, it's not actually something that bothers me but more amuses me, because it's such a non-issue but people make it in to one for themselves.
So whilst I'm not a fan of typical gender roles, and I don't subscribe to them with any conscious effort, or rather I will not choose my interests and hobbies based on what my gender role is supposed to like, and I personally try to encourage this in others if I can.
For example, I dislike the way girls who aren't overwhelmingly interested in all things feminine are referred to as "tomboys", and in that I personally find people who have what is considered "male" interests far more interesting because typical gender role female interests are, well, what feels like very shallow.
That's not a dig at women as such, but the way society has tried to dictate the type of things they deem okay for women to find interesting as if they are of a lower class.
Obviously it strongly varies, there's stuff men can do that women either can't do or not do as well, and the same the other way around, and I'm waffling on to show you that my issue isn't really with gender roles and that sort of thing, just from what I feel to be an objective position in that surgery isn't going to make a "man" in to a "woman" as such, and whilst I will be respectful of someone's choice to do such a thing, it's not disrespectful to not accept the notion that a man can become a women (and the other way around).
From my perspective, I feel the same way as someone suggesting a person can change ethnicity/race by surgery and skin bleaching/darkening, which I think is an objective way of looking at it. But if said person strongly feels that's what they need to do to live a full life, then good for them and I hope it works out for a better life. But I'm not going to pretend that said person is a different race/ethnicity because they have had surgery to make it appear that way.