Bedroom tax

[Biohazard]

It isn't a lie, it's a tax.

Axe the bedroom tax!

PS: If you had read the thread, you wouldn't be acting as if my saying to you it was an equivalence was something new. You got the same response Dolph and others did.

 

[Dolph]

It isn't a lie, it's a tax.

Axe the bedroom tax!

PS: If you had read the thread, you wouldn't be acting as if my saying to you it was an equivalence was something new. You got the same response Dolph and others did.

it is a lie, reducing benefits can never be considered a tax apart from in the minds of the stupid or the dishonest...

 

[Biohazard]

it is a lie, reducing benefits can never be considered a tax apart from in the minds of the stupid or the dishonest...

Given the context and target marker, yes it can.

 

[troops]

Who actually cares whether its a tax or not, the facts are it mainly affects the disabled who cant exactly protest against it, for that very reason this government are despicable.

Moving or trying to move social housing under occupiers into private rented smaller homes will only make the housing benefit bill rise and line the pockets of rich Tory landlords.

 

[Mercenary Keyboard Warrior]

It isn't a lie, it's a tax.

Axe the bedroom tax!

PS: If you had read the thread, you wouldn't be acting as if my saying to you it was an equivalence was something new. You got the same response Dolph and others did.

I don't remember you saying that but I didn't re-read the whole thread tonight, and this has been going on for ages now and you keep reverting to calling it a tax and arguing it is so you even if you have posted that before in the context of our posts it was new.

 

[Biohazard]

I don't remember you saying that but I didn't re-read the whole thread tonight, and this has been going on for ages now and you keep reverting to calling it a tax and arguing it is so you even if you have posted that before in the context of our posts it was new.

Ok then, if you say so.

 

[Mercenary Keyboard Warrior]

Given the context and target marker, yes it can.

No it can't.

By applying that logic anything at all that reduced ones income would be a tax. So inflation is a tax and so would your employer forcing a pay cut.

 

[Biohazard]

No it can't.

By applying that logic anything at all that reduced ones income would be a tax. So inflation is a tax and so would your employer forcing a pay cut.

But we have a specific situation, that is the situation surrounding the lack of appropriate housing stock. In full knowledge of this, and choosing to target bedrooms as the marker, it can be quite simply tagged as a 'tax' on bedrooms as it is inevitable that people will not be able to move, so that isn't the intention, it's benefit reduction. In that context, yes it can. It's how many who are impacted by it feel towards it.

I feel like Bob the Builder here. Yes we can! \o/

 

[Mercenary Keyboard Warrior]

the facts are it mainly affects the disabled who cant exactly protest against it

Source?

Also why can't they protest even if they are the hardest hit, they still have a vote don't they?

They can still got to their local MPs surgery to put their case.

 

[Mercenary Keyboard Warrior]

But we have a specific situation, that is the situation surrounding the lack of appropriate housing stock. In full knowledge of this, and choosing to target bedrooms as the marker, it can be quite simply tagged as a 'tax' on bedrooms as it is inevitable that people will not be able to move, so that isn't the intention, it's benefit reduction. In that context, yes it can. It's how many who are impacted by it feel towards it.

I feel like Bob the Builder here. Yes we can! \o/

If the cap fits and all that, he may help you out on whats a tax and whats not.

Supply and demand, there has not been the demand previously for suitable accomodation. Why accept a 1 bedroom apartment when you could have a three bedroomed house for free.
If this is sustained as a long term initiative then I fully expect the properties being built to follow the trend of what can be afforded on the handouts available.
Your right though it is about welfare reduction, its a necessary evil, the longer you live beyond your means the harder the rebalancing is when you inevitablly have to do it.

 

[Biohazard]

If the cap fits and all that, he may help you out on whats a tax and whats not.

Supply and demand, there has not been the demand previously for suitable accomodation. Why accept a 1 bedroom apartment when you could have a three bedroomed house for free.

It's framing it like this that betrays any sympathy towards those who are in a system that has been poorly managed.

There has been plenty demand for small properties, the markets including public sector have not responded overall. Thus, we're expecting an impossible outcome by thinking it's going to happen by an occupancy penalty on welfare support.

If this is sustained as a long term initiative then I fully expect the properties being built to follow the trend of what can be afforded on the handouts available.
Your right though it is about welfare reduction, its a necessary evil, the longer you live beyond your means the harder the rebalancing is when you inevitablly have to do it.

I don't, the demand hasn't just appeared from no where to market tipping mass by a £25 a week reduction pp. It's always been there, and unfortunately as long as Tories have control of our economy we are likely to suffer a weak construction industry.

 

[Mercenary Keyboard Warrior]

It's framing it like this that betrays any sympathy towards those who are in a system that has been poorly managed.

There has been plenty demand for small properties, the markets including public sector have not responded overall. Thus, we're expecting an impossible outcome by thinking it's going to happen by an occupancy penalty on welfare support.




I don't, the demand hasn't just appeared from no where to market tipping mass by a £25 a week reduction pp. It's always been there, and unfortunately as long as Tories have control of our economy we are likely to suffer a weak construction industry.

I recently came out of construction support so I know a lot about this area as a FD from a large multinational, if you want to blame the tories for that one your going to have to come up with some good evidence.
A weakened construction sector always comes with a contraction or constriction on the general economy. Six years ago we saw the start of a decline in building, in fact without the olympic parks and all the prep works it would have been even earlier and far harder. I forget now the name of the people who supplied details of project planning (everything from residential to large commercial) but it clearly showed a cooling back then.
Construction is a boom bust more than any other sector.
Residential even more so, land is limited and the house builders hold land banks for years, some hold 30+ years worth. When the housing market busts they see less profit than when its on the up so they stop building. Its a limited resource and not always easy to replenish so you can't fault their logic.
My view is that there is absolutely no evidence that links the tories to a supressed building sector its purely the general economy. If the economy was flourishing it would make no diff who was in power to the commissioning of new office blocks or the demand for new housing to be built.

I have suggested numerous times the best plan to help support the economy was a public housebuilding programe, I said this before the tories came to power, the welfare party were just as culpable for lack of housing as the current government, probably worse if you consider the natural time the market will support building is in the good times and even during those times people like Prescott admit not enough was built. The incentives would have needed to be far less than required in the current climate.

 

[troops]

Source?

http://www.itv.com/news/update/2013-02-01/two-thirds-of-those-hit-by-bedroom-tax-are-disabled/

There are very few exceptions, but i believe this May High court cases over this might force another partial Uturn.

 

[Schlong&Stable]

Watch: Couple break down over prospect of 'bedroom tax'

Classy!

 

[Biohazard]

I recently came out of construction support so I know a lot about this area as a FD from a large multinational, if you want to blame the tories for that one your going to have to come up with some good evidence.

George Osborne, the downgraded Chancellor. Before and after the election. He first scaremongered it to death, then inherited it and presided over flat-lining, ie a relative decline, and has failed to keep to his own stipulations.

The main reason construction is so depressed is a lack of new generation PFI projects. That was the big earner.

A weakened construction sector always comes with a contraction or constriction on the general economy. Six years ago we saw the start of a decline in building, in fact without the olympic parks and all the prep works it would have been even earlier and far harder. I forget now the name of the people who supplied details of project planning (everything from residential to large commercial) but it clearly showed a cooling back then.
Construction is a boom bust more than any other sector.
Residential even more so, land is limited and the house builders hold land banks for years, some hold 30+ years worth. When the housing market busts they see less profit than when its on the up so they stop building. Its a limited resource and not always easy to replenish so you can't fault their logic.
My view is that there is absolutely no evidence that links the tories to a supressed building sector its purely the general economy. If the economy was flourishing it would make no diff who was in power to the commissioning of new office blocks or the demand for new housing to be built.

The group I worked for kept house building because that's how it built up its name, and is still one of the larger ones, but it was the developments and engineering that took off. I worked for the FD.

Anyway, 'its purely the general economy'. Like yeah, I wonder who's supposed to be in control of that..

 

[Dolph]

Given the context and target marker, yes it can.

No, it really can't. Tax involves the state taking someone's property. The 'bedroom tax' involves the state giving an individual less of other people's money than they got before. There is absolutely no taxation involved, and to continue to repeat the lie either makes you very stupid or very dishonest.

Fundamentally, the whole of the state subsidised housing approach needs a massive rethink, and I'm far from convinced that reducing benefits to people as a means of dealing with under occupancy is the best solution, but the real issue is people thinking of state subsidised housing as 'their home' rather than a stopgap, and the encouraged belief that the state is responsible for managing the consequences of their choices, rather than personal responsibility.

 

[Mercenary Keyboard Warrior]

George Osborne, the downgraded Chancellor.

I think I've worked it out. You just sound bite quote the likes of Balls and don't think for yourself, and believe what they say is fact.

So to quote the dragons "I'm out"

Btw PFI was terrible, it was just another way for Labour to spend spend more money they didn't have. We had some cross ties between the largest 10 construction & infrastructure firms in the UK over about 3 years (via joint ventures) and not one thought that PFI was good, but it had to be accepted since it was the way the government were willing to engage.

No one is in control of the economy and shouldn't attempt to be, the government set the framework, when they dabble and try to run things it gets worse. Look at France since the more leftwing government took over thats a state going backwards. Heck just look at the Eurozone in general, compared to them the UK is in overdrive.

Anyway I'm sticking to my out now.

 

[Biohazard]

No, it really can't. Tax involves the state taking someone's property. The 'bedroom tax' involves the state giving an individual less of other people's money than they got before. There is absolutely no taxation involved, and to continue to repeat the lie either makes you very stupid or very dishonest.

I'm sure that makes all the people who feel its a tax on their bedroom, because they have no where else appropriately sized to go, feel so much better.

I think we all know it isn't a tax stream, but it certainly smacks of a 'tax' given what it targets. If you can't acknowledge that others might see it that way well then I'm not entirely surprised at your inherent lack of empathy.

And lets not go down the forced theft line again!

Fundamentally, the whole of the state subsidised housing approach needs a massive rethink, and I'm far from convinced that reducing benefits to people as a means of dealing with under occupancy is the best solution, but the real issue is people thinking of state subsidised housing as 'their home' rather than a stopgap, and the encouraged belief that the state is responsible for managing the consequences of their choices, rather than personal responsibility.

I agree.

 

[Biohazard]

I think I've worked it out. You just sound bite quote the likes of Balls and don't think for yourself, and believe what they say is fact.

Oh I'm quite capable of independent cognitive thinking, and I'm not a big fan of Balls and Labour. In fact, I've [hijacked] got a thread dedicated to what could only be described as me disbelieving their nearly every single utterance.

So to quote the dragons "I'm out"

Btw PFI was terrible, it was just another way for Labour to spend spend more money they didn't have. We had some cross ties between the largest 10 construction & infrastructure firms in the UK over about 3 years (via joint ventures) and not one thought that PFI was good, but it had to be accepted since it was the way the government were willing to engage.

PFI wasn't terrible for house builders and construction firms was my point, and the one I worked for seemed to love it. It made their graphs go really high, and much champagne was quaffed.

No one is in control of the economy and shouldn't attempt to be, the government set the framework, when they dabble and try to run things it gets worse. Look at France since the more leftwing government took over thats a state going backwards. Heck just look at the Eurozone in general, compared to them the UK is in overdrive.

Anyway I'm sticking to my out now.

Yes, when looking abject failure in the face absolve ones self of all responsibility.

Only the Tories and their sympathisers can pull it off while holding a straight face ignoring past and present attacks on Labour and Browns presiding over the economy.

 

[Dolph]

I'm sure that makes all the people who feel its a tax on their bedroom, because they have no where else appropriately sized to go, feel so much better.

I think we all know it isn't a tax stream, but it certainly smacks of a 'tax' given what it targets. If you can't acknowledge that others might see it that way well then I'm not entirely surprised at your inherent lack of empathy.

Other people deciding that it constitutes a tax in their minds doesn't make it so in reality, just as people believing the world is flat doesn't make it so.