Does UKIP have any longevity in politics?

elmarko said:
That's not true.

I think Dianne Abbot is almost as stupid as the average UKIP voter, it's not a mutually exclusive thing.
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funny how the mass media don't pull her up on her crack pot views though, more fun to hit out at ukip though as they speak there mind.

as for the average ukip voter being stupid. would that be any more stupid than the average labour, conservitive or lib dem voter ?
 
GAC said:
funny how the mass media don't pull her up on her crack pot views though, more fun to hit out at ukip though as they speak there mind.
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Some papers do, not all - but that political bias exists across the board.

GAC said:
as for the average ukip voter being stupid. would that be any more stupid than the average labour, conservitive or lib dem voter ?
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I'd wager good money the average IQ of a UKIP voter is statistically significantly lower than that of the average Conservative voter.

(Daily Mail link for lulz) - I love the way this article trolls it's reader base.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencet...conservative-politics-lead-people-racist.html

Right-wingers are less intelligent than left wingers, says study
Children with low intelligence grow up to be prejudiced
Right-wing views make the less intelligent feel 'safe'
Analysis of more than 15,000 people

"The study, published in Psychological Science, claims that right-wing ideology forms a 'pathway' for people with low reasoning ability to become prejudiced against groups such as other races and gay people."

'Cognitive abilities are critical in forming impressions of other people and in being open minded,' say the researchers.
'Individuals with lower cognitive abilities may gravitate towards more socially conservative right-wing ideologies that maintain the status quo.

'It provides a sense of order.'

Just to give it a bit of balance also - 'Clearly, however, all socially conservative people are not prejudiced, and all prejudiced persons are not conservative.'

But the statistical trend does exist.
 
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so 15k people out of 65 million, good cross section there. would be interesting where these people where brought up to see how much of a spread there actually is.

and what does IQ have to do with being able to make a reasoned choice when it comes to politics. after all having a higher IQ doesnt mean you'l be able to cut through the political spin and flat out lies any better than someone who has a lower than average IQ.

didnt help all the educated students with the libdems the last election as a prime example. maybe if the system forced mp's to actually follow through on manifesto promises things would be better, but we all know that would never get past parliament let alone the lords.

personally though i cant stand the whole IQ thing as its just comes across as another means of measuring and labeling people with a pointless number that really does mean very little for the majority of people.
 
GAC said:
so 15k people out of 65 million, good cross section there. would be interesting where these people where brought up to see how much of a spread there actually is.

and what does IQ have to do with being able to make a reasoned choice when it comes to politics. after all having a higher IQ doesnt mean you'l be able to cut through the political spin and flat out lies any better than someone who has a lower than average IQ.

didnt help all the educated students with the libdems the last election as a prime example. maybe if the system forced mp's to actually follow through on manifesto promises things would be better, but we all know that would never get past parliament let alone the lords.

personally though i cant stand the whole IQ thing as its just comes across as another means of measuring and labeling people with a pointless number that really does mean very little for the majority of people.
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I'd happily wager £1000 right now that if a test was done on a multitude of different cognitive abilities (not just IQ) that UKIP voters would score lower than the base.

I don't really think IQ is a great measure either, but it can be used as a rough proxy - the fact remains extreme right wing ideology tends to deal in absolutes, false dichotomies & values "tradition" sometimes over the facts (which is another logical fallacy) - instead of taking into account a vast array of different factors which influence the problem in question.

That in my book would correlate with stupidity.

I mean objectively, their criminal justice policies would actually result in an increase in crime (due to an increase in re-offender rates) - only a true idiot would write such small-minded policies which are in direct conflict with all of the available evidence & only a fool would defend them.
 
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il agree with that one, extreme's on either end of the spectrum can be rather stupid. but to just say someone is stupid because they voted for ukip is a rather closed view.

as for the arguing over the facts that's one that can be leveled at a lot of people on both sides of the eu in/out argument. as a lot of labour and lib dem mp's like to shout about how the uk cant do it as we will be worse off. even though the vast majority of economists cant say one way or the other what would happen if we were out of the eu and just in a free trade zone.

i just get irked at a lot of the labeling that goes on as people seem determined to pop everyone in one pigeon hole or another, rather than just accepting them as having different views or ideas they have to scream racist, fascists, socialist etc.
 
GAC said:
il agree with that one, extreme's on either end of the spectrum can be rather stupid. but to just say someone is stupid because they voted for ukip is a rather closed view.
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I'd say a willingness to vote in a bigoted & regressive social party for an issue as small as our involvement in the EU (which to be frank is over-stated) displays a lack of focus on priorities.

If you press the average UKIP voter on what exactly they expect will change they don't even know - neither can they give you any tangible benefits.

Then you factor in the massive social & economic cost of destroying our criminal justice system, our entire social infrastructure (health care, social care), further deregulating the financial institutions which caused the very mess we are in, heading back 50 years on ethical equality based polices & then the added benefit of becoming an international embarrassment across the globe.

No, I don't think leaving the EU is really worth that.

I agree that extreme views tend to be dangerous - as things are not often as simple as black & white, but this is the closest to an extremist party we have in the UK.
 
elmarko said:
I mean objectively, their criminal justice policies would actually result in an increase in crime (due to an increase in re-offender rates) - only a true idiot would write such small-minded policies which are in direct conflict with all of the available evidence & only a fool would defend them.
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I think you need to think a little more about why such a policy exists even if it contrary to evidence and even if you know it is contrary to evidence. From a political point of view publishing a policy that, whilst backed with evidence, would be ripped apart by the media and other politicians as soft on crime would be idiotic.
 
RDM said:
I think you need to think a little more about why such a policy exists even if it contrary to evidence and even if you know it is contrary to evidence. From a political point of view publishing a policy that, whilst backed with evidence, would be ripped apart by the media and other politicians as soft on crime would be idiotic.
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Which would be an argument to say very little, not propose changes which actually go directly against the evidence.

I do agree with you though - that at the moment the voters don't care about evidence that much - but I'd argue our political class should be pushing evidence based reasoning as a standard for politics (which is something I'd wager our political class don't want to do either) but they should.
 
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elmarko said:
Some papers do, not all - but that political bias exists across the board.

I'd wager good money the average IQ of a UKIP voter is statistically significantly lower than that of the average Conservative voter.

(Daily Mail link for lulz) - I love the way this article trolls it's reader base.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencet...conservative-politics-lead-people-racist.html

Right-wingers are less intelligent than left wingers, says study
Children with low intelligence grow up to be prejudiced
Right-wing views make the less intelligent feel 'safe'
Analysis of more than 15,000 people

"The study, published in Psychological Science, claims that right-wing ideology forms a 'pathway' for people with low reasoning ability to become prejudiced against groups such as other races and gay people."

'Cognitive abilities are critical in forming impressions of other people and in being open minded,' say the researchers.
'Individuals with lower cognitive abilities may gravitate towards more socially conservative right-wing ideologies that maintain the status quo.

'It provides a sense of order.'

Just to give it a bit of balance also - 'Clearly, however, all socially conservative people are not prejudiced, and all prejudiced persons are not conservative.'

But the statistical trend does exist.
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Nevermind I read it wrong. Not sure that IQ is very relevant to that though tbh.
 
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elmarko said:
Which would be an argument to say very little, not propose changes which actually go directly against the evidence.
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Not really no, because then you wouldn't have a policy that is popular with the public and the press. Being "tough on criminals" is popular, despite the fact that it doesn't work.
 
RDM said:
Not really no, because then you wouldn't have a policy that is popular with the public and the press. Being "tough on criminals" is popular, despite the fact that it doesn't work.
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Not all political parties have the same level of rhetoric on this matter.

Not all are directly stating to put into effect measures which are in direct conflict to the evidence, it just highlights it's a party with no real thought - attempting to promise whatever the baying mod desires to get as many votes as possible.

It's a party for the masses with a large empty mass.
 
elmarko said:
Not all political parties have the same level of rhetoric on this matter.

Not all are directly stating to put into effect measures which are in direct conflict to the evidence, it just highlights it's a party with no real thought - attempting to promise whatever the baying mod desires to get as many votes as possible.

It's a party for the masses with a large empty mass.
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I am not disagreeing with you on that I was disagreeing with you on your assertion that such policies are idiotic for a party to have. They aren't because they are popular and the only way a minor party can make an impact is by being popular enough to get votes.
 
Well after yesterday's carry on I'd say UKIP have achieved the impossible. They are even more hated in Scotland than the Tories! Farage practically got run out of town in Edinburgh yesterday :)
 
GAC said:
and yet again students showing how wet behind the ears they are when it comes to politics, you'd have thought they would have learned from the libdem pledge a few years ago.
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I think it's Farage who has been shown to be out of touch really.

GAC said:
as for the whole uk v scotland issue leave it for the scotty thread biohazard as we know its a jumbled mess and as iv said i bet its still not finished with even after the vote happens.
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When UKIP stop discussing Scottish Independence I'll refrain from mentioning it then, until then they are fair game as are my comments.
 
RDM said:
I am not disagreeing with you on that I was disagreeing with you on your assertion that such policies are idiotic for a party to have. They aren't because they are popular and the only way a minor party can make an impact is by being popular enough to get votes.
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The actual policies are idiotic for the country (or the assumed goal to reduce crime), but sensible to garner votes from idiots would have been a better way of phrasing it.

You are correct in that, so I'll concede that point :p.
 
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