Feminist Article

[Nitefly]

Ooooo this could be controversial! Saw this in the Guardian and thought it was an interesting read, but wasn't really sure what to make of it:

http://m.guardian.co.uk/education/m...0/why-i-started-a-feminist-society?CMP=twt_gu

I do sympathise with the writer but I don't think she is differentiating between what is worthy of attention and what isn't. For example, the men who threw the coffee at her is a clear example of a lack of respect for women, but I some of the other comments are clearly just men goofing off. Yes they are intended to be a joke at the feminist's expense, but is a joke against the opposite sex always something to take as an attack against the cause?

Referring to the photos with statements on them, with comments like these I don't really see the relevance:

"...if she belongs in the kitchen then so does he" - pardon my ignorance but does any man actually believe this? I struggle to believe it exists as anything more than a joke in today's society, as evidence but the enormous amount of woman in the workforce. I just find it an odd thing for the statement maker to make, clearly coming from such a privaledged background.

"... because groping is not OK" - this is again universally accepted, that's why we have laws to deal with it.

"... a woman should have the power and confidence to say no" - agreed, but it's a statement of pretty much nothing.

"... my vagina is my business and nobody elses" - well, obviously.

"... I feel like I shouldn't have to wear make-up in this photo" - then don't.

Some of them however I do think are on the right lines:

"... because people still ask what the victim was wearing"
"... because men should have to factor their kids into their career too"
"... I don't want to feel scared when I go out by myself at night"
"... women should have equal opportunities in the workplace" - I agree to this one but would make the additional comment that having children, to extents, will obviously disrupt careers

I guess I find it hard to believe that some feminists such as these actually know what they are fighting for. Instead, it's just a flag to rally behind and something to be a part of. Maybe that's just a blinkered male perspective.

What do you think?

 

[StriderX]

We need some masculinist stuff to ignore these wimminz moaning.

In all honesty i just don't bother caring what a self designated feminist thinks, you don't change anything by trying to force it, you have to be subtle, so that people think they are the ones doing it.

 

[[FnG]magnolia]

but wasn't really sure what to make of it

Why, you can make a hat or a brooch or a pterodactyl.

Overclockers UK Forums > Life > General Discussion > 17 year old believes she is the voice of a feminist generation, previous generations look perplexed

I'm just knocking it out of the park tonight :/

 

[StriderX]

The really ironic thing is that feminism puts a lot of men off, as unless the male is willing to be a submissive worshipper of the feminist goddess that he found, the female generally doesn't want anything from him.

Like sex for example, which ultimately stops these people from breeding, so swings and roundabouts?

Ignoring the fact that they can breed with a test tube nowadays.

 

[JonJ678]

Equal rights is equal treatment under law, universal suffrage, lack of discrimination. Stuff like that. I'm not sure it extends as far as men shouting derogatory things or throwing coffee at women. That seems to be neatly covered under sexual discrimination and/or assault.

If anything, I think the fight for equality has got a bit out of hand. There's the slightly crazed idea that we should bias society in favour of women to make up for past centuries of bias in favour of men. That's not equal. I don't want 50% of people in every job to be women if there are men who are better qualified and more capable.

 

[Schlong&Stable]

Feminism in 2013 Britain is a nonsense. They have equal rights before the law, it's done.

 

[aln]

Article is basically a rant about teenage boys using that to justify that we're nowhere near equality. Another girl that doesn't understand equality doesn't mean we need to be the same and that the biggest hurdle are generally woman themselves and their peers, not men.

When a feminist accepts that womans issues with pay stem from the decision to have children and the type of careers they pursue without laying the blame at the feet of men, then maybe she'll be worth listening to.

Or rather, how about they stop being hypocrites and join the likes of fathers for justice. Help get men some "equality" while they're at it.

 

[StriderX]

Equal rights is equal treatment under law, universal suffrage, lack of discrimination. Stuff like that. I'm not sure it extends as far as men shouting derogatory things or throwing coffee at women. That seems to be neatly covered under sexual discrimination and/or assault.

If anything, I think the fight for equality has got a bit out of hand. There's the slightly crazed idea that we should bias society in favour of women to make up for past centuries of bias in favour of men. That's not equal. I don't want 50% of people in every job to be women if there are men who are better qualified and more capable.

Well females have been shoving coffee in mens faces for quite a bit longer and no one cared to start calling it discrimination.

Again, equality...double edged sword of the most vicious variety, feminists just want all the benefits without the downsides...

 

[Xordium]

What do you think?

I think when you find places where the majority of people are woman or they hold the positions of power that they discriminate to the same extent as men.

 

[elmarko]

The only noticeable thing I've seen regarding feminism I don't agree with is the automatic assumption a joke is said with sexist malice.

I makes jokes in the office at the expense of anybody, men or women - I'll make cheeky comments to insult a guy with an innuendo (if he walks into it) just as much as I do with women, but sometimes I get the odd look from the feminist types in the office like I'm being a sexist pig...

Men joke about with each other, equality in this sense is doing the same to women.

In reality, feminism is a pretty normal & fine concept - but like most minority group things it's been hijacked by a few jumped up extremists/men haters (who are doing more damage to feminism than good).

My main real gripe about the overall concept of feminism it's only one part of discrimination - which is why I identify as an egalitarian (economic & social) as opposed to a feminist.

I think when you find places where the majority of people are woman or they hold the positions of power that they discriminate to the same extent as men.

Also this.

Not to mention it's not like sexism is only to the detriment of women, men are given very little emotional support throughout their lifetime (in part by being berated by other men, or rejected by women for not being masculine enough) - with significantly higher male suicide rates being a result of this.

I'm sure this kind of social attitude (along with the preferences of young women for "bad boys" is likely to impact on the development of young men (which causes some of the very problems they wish to avoid).

 

[Xordium]

Men joke about with each other, equality in this sense is doing the same to women..

Are you suggesting equality is treating everyone equally? I am sure you are not but it reads that way.

 

[ahar]

For a start, there is little agreement even amongst those women (and men) calling themselves feminist as to what that means. The term covers people from Julie Bindle (Guardian writer, very left wing) to a few Tory MPs.

The abuse that the boys gave that girl is awful and they need to be punished and told that - whatever you think of feminism, nothing excuses that kind of abuse.

However, I don't think they're bad or representative of Men in the UK - teenage boys tend to be pretty immature and idiotic and need a firm hand to show them what's right and what's wrong. That was certainly true of me and my mates when we were teenagers.

I'm a fan of women standing up and challenging men's thinking on sexism and how society works. They won't always be right, but there's nothing wrong with rethinking assumptions (even if they stay the same afterwards) every now and again.

Oh, and there'll always be misandry from a few - if you're a bloke then best just ignore it.

 

[elmarko]

Are you suggesting equality is treating everyone equally? I am sure you are not but it reads that way.

I said "in this sense", regarding jokes/insults about harmless teasing (innuendos, stupid comments not nothing overtly sexual or malicious) - obviously doesn't apply to everything .

 

[mrk]

We need some masculinist stuff to ignore these wimminz moaning.

In all honesty i just don't bother caring what a self designated feminist thinks, you don't change anything by trying to force it, you have to be subtle, so that people think they are the ones doing it.

Psychology 101 here^

 

[Xordium]

I said "in this sense", regarding jokes/insults about harmless teasing (innuendos, stupid comments not nothing overtly sexual or malicious) - obviously doesn't apply to everything .

I would argue for a demographic who have had to endure such comments in a non-harmless fashion may not necessarily see your comments as either harmless or fun and therefore you are not treating these people equally because you have ignored their special circumstances.

That is not practising equality

 

[elmarko]

I would argue for a demographic who have had to endure such comments in a non-harmless fashion may not necessarily see your comments as either harmless or fun and therefore you are not treating these people equally because you have ignored their special circumstances.

That is not practising equality

The comments made are not directed at those types, but at people with similar mindsets - the disapproval is from spectators, not participants.

Also, by that standard - equality is impossible anyway, as somebody will always have some personal gripe about something another may cross a line on (while being reasonable), unless we conduct surveys beforehand to everybody we interact with a grey area will always exist - assumptions will be made.

Where the assumption line is drawn is another debate, but you seem to be putting forward an impossible standard for equality.

I'd say equality is a combination of treating people equal to yourself, but while taking reasonable steps for those who require special consideration.

 

[Xordium]

The comments made are not directed at those types, but at people with similar mindsets - the disapproval is from spectators, not participants.

So I can make racist jokes in front of Black people but not directly at them?

(Nice ninja edit to add quite a bit to that post to substantiate that line!)

The point still stands. You are making the assumption and you are being the judge of when things are acceptable. You say such a standard would be impossible. Only if you make it so. There is no need for you to make such flippant throwaway jokes - and yet you chose to in the full knowledge that it may offend some. Now either that means a) you haven't thought this through and haven't thought that maybe you are employing the same defensive tactics of everyone who defends their -ism b) you genuinely don't give a **** about their feelings c) you do care about their feelings, have thought through and feel your right to make jokes is greater than their emancipation.

 

[=XDC=FluphyBunny]

Many of the girls have eating disorders, some have had peers heavily pressure them into sexual acts, others suffer in emotionally abusive relationships where they are constantly told they are worthless.

From the opening ramble (really thats all it was). All examples of woman free to act making their own wrong choices, and yet its all men's fault ! Some feminists have a very very warped idea of what equality is.

 

[Vulcan]

but women still get paid less

Even if this is true, it's underground and very hard to fix.

We have laws against the possession of swathes of drugs. Possession of many drugs is seen as acceptable by many, many people. The fact that we have laws to deal with groping doesn't mean it's universally accepted that groping is unacceptable.

Drugs and groping are very different. If I have some drugs, I'm not affecting you, if I grope you, I am affecting you.

It's not quite that simple, is it? Of course, literally speaking, she could make the choice to not wear makeup... but the point is that the social pressures are such that it's not a realistic proposition for many.

I disagree. It's their body, they make the choice to wear makeup.

I could argue it's a social pressure to shave, after all, who has a beard in the office?

 

[elmarko]

So I can make racist jokes in front of Black people but not directly at them?

It's not comparable.

A joke related to an innuendo isn't the same about a joke related to the concept of racial superiority.

Even if the comparison was reasonable (which it isn't), it would be me & black person making racial jokes to each other in jest - then a third party getting offended.

Either way your comparison is flawed.

On a side note, I didn't say anywhere I was making sexist jokes (before you try that angle).

What are you suggesting?, that me & a member of the opposite sex should not be permitted to say stupid jokes to each other in-case somebody else not involved thinks I'm being sexist?. (would that be treating people with equality?)

How do you feel about free speech?.