Feminist Article

[[FnG]magnolia]

Sweet, I love the idea of equal rights. Next time a size 6 or whatever girl bumps in to me in a club and gives me verbal instead of walking away as she wants equal rights, does that mean I get to give her a good 20 stone punch?

Equal rights isn't about a fat man punching a small woman.

 

[cHk4]

Equal rights isn't about a fat man punching a small woman.

Hence I said about a combat sport environment below.

The two parts of this sentence do not connect to each other. Your violent tendencies are something you should get under control.

Something that regularly occurs in martial arts classes around the country. But in terms of competition at the peak of physical fitness (Worlds, Olympics, anything professional), nobody's arguing with the fact that men are generally capable of higher physical peaks (let's say strength and speed, for example) than women. So where's the equality to be had in that? You're picking silly examples which you think prove your point, but really don't I'm afraid.

I have my violent tendencies under control, as much as I love a good scrap.

Don't get me wrong when I used to do BJJ/Kick boxing there were woman there yes, but did I go the pace/power that I would against another male? Did I heck, I would just tap them or use barely any strength in grappling as they are not equal and I think most of the men there would agree. If you want equality then it has to be across the board, it's not pick and mix.

 

[drunkenmaster]

But its not unfair, women choose whether or not to have kids its not forced upon them, also they only get paid less when its deserved by that I mean I would be rather unhappy getting paid the same or less as any other person male or female who had say taken time of to have said kids, Ive got more experience in the role I should be paid more, women hide behind this childbearing ******** but fact is nobody forces them to do it, nobody forces them to take time off, there are many women who have chosen not to have kids and are at the top of the career pile. Expecting to have 10 years off to do the mummy or daddy thing then come back into work getting the same pay as someone whose put those 10 years in is ridiculous

It's also worth noting and is usually ignored, that if men/women get paid the same irregardless of if someone has taken 10 years out of their career to have kids, then when a woman does take time off to have kids, they would be financially worse off while out of work. So a man and woman make 30k a year each, then they have a kid, she doesn't work for 5 years, he's on 30k, they've lost 50% of their income. If she was on 20k and him 40k, because the company realise she has a ridiculously high chance of taking time out and he will need to support a wife and kids on one salary, then when she stops working, they have more money to live on.

The fact is there IS NO FAIR WAY to do this, at all, having kids will ALWAYS effect your income, taking time out of work will always effect your income, there is no perfect solution(without moving to a star trek style moneyless society). If you had precisely equivalent pay, feminists would complain they are unfairly discriminated against for having kids with a massive reduction in household income, if you have disporportionate pay, which makes having kids a "smaller hit" on the household income.... they complain about equal pay.

As above, because of the insane likelyhood of a woman taking significant time out to have kids, this is why men end up working insane hours, and why they tend to have different roles in society. Its not fun to work 12 hours a day and miss out on every important part of your families life, its a sacrifice. Women that work exactly that hard and don't have kids, get paid the silly money(or are equally capable of getting the great jobs as men) men can get if they do the same for their entire life. Men who don't work that hard get paid less, its got smeg all to do with equality, its just choices in life, again and they are the same for men and women in most situations.

As usual in current society, no one understands "sacrifice" we want everything, all the time, no one wants their choices in life to ever disadvantage themselves compared to other choices, but that is just living in a dream world.

There was genuine unfair disparity, no voting, horrendous treatment, whats going on these days(in western world) is a joke of just pretending these minor things are issues women have that men don't.

 

[bloodiedathame]

The way women can be overlooked when it comes to interviews and promotions, because employers consider them a 'risk' in terms of them running off on maternity leave after a kid, etc, etc. There's the maternity leave cost/the cost of getting someone else in/the wasted investment in the woman in question/the cost of training a replacement/etc. And that can affect women who don't even have or want kids!

I read that as "overclocked"... And briefly wondered, how do I overclock my wife?

 

[ahar]

I read that as "overclocked"... And briefly wondered, how do I overclock my wife?

I use copious amounts of wine, some flowers and a little chocolate

Your results may vary

 

[ahar]

Feminism is nothing without intersectionality.

I think intersectionality is a little advanced for the level of debate on here

 

[[FnG]magnolia]

I think intersectionality is a little advanced for the level of debate on here

For those in the cheap seats (me), could you expand on this term?

 

[AJK]

Don't get me wrong when I used to do BJJ/Kick boxing there were woman there yes, but did I go the pace/power that I would against another male? Did I heck, I would just tap them or use barely any strength in grappling as they are not equal and I think most of the men there would agree. If you want equality then it has to be across the board, it's not pick and mix.

Well we'd best ditch the age requirements as well, and stage professional boxing matches between children and experienced adults. That's your version of "equality", right?

I don't think equal treatment means what you think it means.

 

[Skidder]

For those in the cheap seats (me), could you expand on this term?

my (pulled out of my backside) interpretation is we have a ven diagram with every type of person and in the middle intersection you have a left-handed, albino, transexual, midget, lesbian, eskimo who is the most berated and subjected to intolerance person on the planet. But what do I know?

 

[Vulcan]

I'm not proposing solutions. I don't have to. I'm just saying that something exists. That's not an unreasonable position - go back and read the thread of the conversation, to see how we got to this point.

I have, and I was asking you a question regarding what you wrote...

Again, please read what I write. I'm not comparing them (groping and drug taking), I'm just saying that they are two things where they're illegal, but deemed acceptable by many people - I could have used speeding as an example, but that still wouldn't be comparing groping/drugs/speeding.

They aren't though. They are 2 morally different crimes, and people know that.

Talk to women about makeup - I implore you.

And the outcome is always they love makeup...

What's your point?

 

[stuie]

Firstly, we need women to have children. Without that, we're utterly screwed.

Secondly, what about women who don't even have kids? What if an employer just factors into their considerations that someone may have a kid relatively soon, so doesn't employ them?

Should you get paid less than a gay man, because there's a risk you could have a child with your partner and go off on paternity leave?

If my paternity leave involved taking 5 years out then yes I would expect to get paid less Ive done 5 years less work in that role, As it stands 2 weeks out the office isnt a big deal unless you want to go down the route of paid/unpaid holiday allowance, you wouldn't expect an office junior to be on the same pay as someone whos been there for 5 years would you?

I dont know any employer who pays less based on the possibilities of reproduction, if that is the case Ill be demanding huge pay rise when I get the snip

 

[cHk4]

Well we'd best ditch the age requirements as well, and stage professional boxing matches between children and experienced adults. That's your version of "equality", right?

I don't think equal treatment means what you think it means.

Yes you're right, I'm taking a very black and white approach, no different than how a lot of these feminists do... Again it's ok for them to do it...

 

[ahar]

my (pulled out of my backside) interpretation is we have a ven diagram with every type of person and in the middle intersection you have a left-handed, albino, transexual, midget, lesbian, eskimo who is the most berated and subjected to intolerance person on the planet. But what do I know?

Intersectionality is a concept mostly used in the more theoretical debates about feminism, usually when talking with socialists or marxists. It simply stated that you can't consider fully the reasons, implications and solutions to women's oppression without considering how this intersects with other power imbalances in society.

Marxists in particular argue that women's oppression is just one of there symptoms of capitalism (like racism, poverty etc), and cannot properly be addressed without looking at the fundamental unequal power relationships in society.

A concrete example might be unequal pay - say you have a group of women doing exactly the same job for one employer as a group of men, but the women are paid 10% less. You may campaign under feminist principles for equal pay, but the bosses in the company may just cut the men's pay to equal the women, rather than increase the women's pay, which is what the feminist campaigners wanted. Looking at this as an intersectional issue, the best way to address unequal pay in this hypothetical firm would be to remove the unequal relationship between the working class and the bosses in the firm to ensure everyone gets fair pay.

Not saying I agree with it, but you did ask

 

[[FnG]magnolia]

I don't know.

my (pulled out of my backside) interpretation is we have a ven diagram with every type of person and in the middle intersection you have a left-handed, albino, transexual, midget, lesbian, eskimo who is the most berated and subjected to intolerance person on the planet. But what do I know?

Hmm, I ****ed about on wiki did some important research and found out:

Intersectionality (or Intersectionalism) is the study of intersections between different disenfranchised groups or groups of minorities; specifically, the study of the interactions of multiple systems of oppression or discrimination.[1] This feminist sociological theory was first highlighted by Kimberlé Crenshaw (1989). Intersectionality is a methodology of studying "the relationships among multiple dimensions and modalities of social relationships and subject formations" (McCall 2005). The theory suggests that—and seeks to examine how—various biological, social and cultural categories such as gender, race, class, ability, sexual orientation, and other axes of identity interact on multiple and often simultaneous levels, contributing to systematic social inequality. Intersectionality holds that the classical conceptualizations of oppression within society, such as racism, sexism, homophobia, and belief-based bigotry including nationalism, do not act independently of one another; instead, these forms of oppression interrelate, creating a system of oppression that reflects the "intersection" of multiple forms of discrimination.[2]

So there we are.

e : ^ well, there goes my glory moment

 

[Nitefly]

I would don the monocle and reply but I'm away for the weekend and must be hasty with my time - I may make replies in due course.

 

[Judgeneo]

I think its high time the word feminist was dropped, and a gender neutral word was used instead.

Otherwise we are going to see an increased amount of extreme feminists who are ignorant of, or choose to ignore the other inequalities in society, in favour of twisting the perception of equality to their own agendas.



I also think that the writer of the article has a good chance of a career in journalism.

 

[stuie]

No, you're going further. I'm not going down that discussion.



I'm not talking about the morality of specific crimes vs other specific crimes. I was just saying that the fact that something is criminalised does not mean it's unacceptable to everyone/there isn't a significant number of people who still think it's alright.



And what about if they go without makeup? Vast numbers will attest to how they feel unfeminine/less worthy/etc/etc. It's not just a case of makeup makes them look nicer, it's that without makeup they feel bad about looking worse relative to their peers who are in makeup.



You're missing my point - I gave the example of someone who doesn't want kids/doesn't have kids/etc... but they still get treated worse than men, because there's a perceived risk they'll may have a kid.

The paternity example being someone who doesn't have paternity leave, and never will, but still gets paid less because there's a risk they may at some point.

I understand your point I just dont believe that is the case anymore

 

[sports_brah]

I would agree with Judgeneo. There are issues that need to be addressed, but having a gender specific idealogy is never going to be nuanced enough to deal with the sensitive issues.

There was a time and place for the blunt tool that was feminism, times when there was gaping inequality. Now it's going to cause more harm than good.

 

[krooton]

I practice equality every time I see a lady in stupidly high heels look at me longingly for my tube seat, only for me to ignore them. Your stupid choice my dear, not an excuse to steal my seat. (unless you are super fit).

Aaaaaand it's gone.

 

[yer_averagejoe]

This discussion is going surprisingly well so far and well, this is GD: