The Problem with Simulation?

Robertnpmk · 24 Jul 2013 at 12:23

Hi,

A book I read recently by Iain Banks got me thinking:

Currently we can simulate quite complicated financial systems to predict outcomes of shares/economies and the like. These are only accurate to a certain point due to the variables that are involved and certain things we are unable to simulate. EG natural disasters.

Theoretically as processing power gets larger and larger we will be able to simulate these things with a higher level of accuracy.

Eventually we will be able to simulate people so we can predict their decisions and the affects that these will have on the situation.

This book asked the question as to what point of accuracy or simulation are these simulated people defined as sentient beings and would turning the simulation off be classed as Mass Murder?

/Hope that makes sense.

EXTRACT:

R

[FnG]magnolia · 24 Jul 2013 at 12:26

Which book?

Theophany · 24 Jul 2013 at 12:26

Doesn't simulation essentially mean 'not real?' Not sure how that could translate to murder...

Robertnpmk · 24 Jul 2013 at 12:28

[FnG]magnolia;24657855 said:
Which book?

The Hydrogen Sonata, his last culture novel.

Kishywish · 24 Jul 2013 at 12:28

Was the book "The Algebraist"?

edit - no, it wasn't.

Zogger · 24 Jul 2013 at 12:28

Theophany said:
Doesn't simulation essentially mean 'not real?' Not sure how that could translate to murder...

Because at some point 'they' will think and behave just like real people, even though they don't have a physical manifestation in the real world. It's like creating an android with artificial intelligence so good it might as well be a person, then killing it.

DiscoDave · 24 Jul 2013 at 12:29

Human brains don't work in the same way as CPU's do, the approach to processing and decision making are so fundamentally different, so I don't think we can simulate/predict the actions of a human regardless of the processing horsepower from an artificial CPU.

MowyTone · 24 Jul 2013 at 12:32

The next quiestion would be at what point are these predictions so accurate that the is the stock market would cease to function in the same way as EVERYTHING has been accounted for in the simulation and you know exactly what is going to happen

Robertnpmk · 24 Jul 2013 at 12:34

Zogger said:
Because at some point 'they' will think and behave just like real people, even though they don't have a physical manifestation in the real world. It's like creating an android with artificial intelligence so good it might as well be a person, then killing it.

This is what Im talking about. Does it change the question into a question of ethics?

Theophany · 24 Jul 2013 at 12:34

Zogger said:
Because at some point 'they' will think and behave just like real people, even though they don't have a physical manifestation in the real world. It's like creating an android with artificial intelligence so good it might as well be a person, then killing it.

See I think the only argument I could come up with would be semantic - if they are truly sentient beings then can it really be defined as a simulation?

Kishywish · 24 Jul 2013 at 12:36

Hypothetically, if those simulated beings can pass a test for sentience (say, via an accepted testing method like the Turing Test for intelligent behaviour) then yes, turning off the machine is murder.

Unless murder is defined as the termination of corporeal sentient beings only?

Robertnpmk · 24 Jul 2013 at 12:37

Theophany said:
See I think the only argument I could come up with would be semantic - if they are truly sentient beings then can it really be defined as a simulation?

Thats a good point. you would end up running a simulation on the simulation.

MowyTone · 24 Jul 2013 at 12:38

Kishywish said:
Hypothetically, if those simulated beings can pass a test for sentience (say, via an accepted testing method like the Turing Test for intelligent behaviour) then yes, turning off the machine is murder.

Unless murder is defined as the termination of corporeal sentient beings only?

And what it is then defined as when you turn the machine back on?

Zogger · 24 Jul 2013 at 12:39

Theophany said:
See I think the only argument I could come up with would be semantic - if they are truly sentient beings then can it really be defined as a simulation?

yes... if god is a creator then are we anything more than just AIs running around in his simulation?

(someone had to bring Him in to it..)

I wouldn't mind being in a simulation if it meant we could be paused and moved around and inserted into different times. Would be like time travel.. It's not really murder if you can just turn them back on again.

G-MAN2004 · 24 Jul 2013 at 12:40

Zogger said:
Because at some point 'they' will think and behave just like real people, even though they don't have a physical manifestation in the real world. It's like creating an android with artificial intelligence so good it might as well be a person, then killing it.

But it's not a real person.

Zogger · 24 Jul 2013 at 12:42

G-MAN2004 said:
But it's not a real person.

What makes you a real person rather than just a collection of cells simulating a 'real person'? The only argument I've ever heard to the contrary is the idea of a soul above and beyond our own body, but it's not something I believe in.

Robertnpmk · 24 Jul 2013 at 12:44

G-MAN2004 said:
But it's not a real person.

At some point, (Not in my lifetime) we will be able to upload your consciousness to an android/computer. Would this stop you from being real?

arknor · 24 Jul 2013 at 12:45

people aren't predictable.
computers learn patterns and random behaviour?

At some point, (Not in my lifetime) we will be able to upload your consciousness to an android/computer. Would this stop you from being real?

Good luck with that I can only imagine the ridiculous storage requirements and It wouldn't be you it would be a copy of your storage.

no two peoples brains operate the same way

Biohazard · 24 Jul 2013 at 12:51

There is certainly a near perfect parallel that might arise from such developments, but I don't see how switching it off would be mass murder. It would still be a simulation.

Btw, ta arknor.

MowyTone · 24 Jul 2013 at 12:53

arknor said:
no two peoples brains operate the same way