Audi S5 vs BMW M3
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[TW]Fox;24756403 said:
And your point is? im sure they do drive different (youd hope so!) but thats my point. they look identical.
[TW]Fox;24756403 said:
If BMW had done anything apart from stick a different engine in it then yes. but they didnt. You could play the same argument against any derivative of any car model; and its the sum of all these differences which make - the difference. you know it.
[TW]Fox;24756403 said:
Touche on the image search, but you cant even tell between these m-sports.
(and no image search cheating lol, which is which? i may have to go back to source to figure it out.
[TW]Fox;24756403 said:So, I re-iterate - The S5 is a 335i M Sport alternative, not an M3 alternative
and not once did i disagree on that.
![[TW]Fox](/data/man-of-honor/2009.png){kind=avatar}
Yes but you were arguing that the s5 is more special than the 335i on the basis that it has silver mirrors and a very slight difference in the front bumper (compared to a5 s lines on a looks basis)...the point is neither are special cars. Both are quick coupe's with great engines.
In summary, I think we all agree that the m3 is the easy choice here.
In summary, I think we all agree that the m3 is the easy choice here.
Soldato
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It's not that hard to understand really, Audi RS models (Quattro GmbH) are equivalent to BMW M (BMW Motorsport GmbH).
Audi S models are made on the mainstream production lines (and are obviously below Audi RS and BMW M), but sit above the normal "S-Line" and "M-Sport" trim levels.
Using the 1-Series/A3 example:
And back on this thread... the M3 is the proper performance car, and the S5 is the comfortable cruiser with a decent amount of poke. Two different cars for two different tasks.
Audi S models are made on the mainstream production lines (and are obviously below Audi RS and BMW M), but sit above the normal "S-Line" and "M-Sport" trim levels.
Using the 1-Series/A3 example:
Audi A3 1.8 TFSI S-Line = BMW 125i M-Sport
Audi S3 = BMW M 135i
Audi RS3 = BMW 1M (would be called 1M if it wasn't for the previous car with the same name).
Audi S3 = BMW M 135i
Audi RS3 = BMW 1M (would be called 1M if it wasn't for the previous car with the same name).
And back on this thread... the M3 is the proper performance car, and the S5 is the comfortable cruiser with a decent amount of poke. Two different cars for two different tasks.
The difference between an S3 and RS3 is a lot more compared to the M135i and 1M.
Bit late, sorry about that, but here I am with my story about the quest for a V8.
I really appreciate the comments and insights here, it seems there was little input needed to get this party started.
First of all I need to explain why I came across these two cars, because they shouldn't be compared too harsh as many of u have said. And I agree.
Initially I was looking for an S5, so I went to this dealer to have a look at one, it wasn't there. Some detailwork needed to be done, kinda disappointed, but it happens. So I was wandering through the showroom and "accidentally " ran into the M3 E92. That kinda made me think…..
Here's what my thoughts are on each car
Since I own an A4, let's start with the Audi:
I love the looks, even knowing it's a pimped out A5. It is a class design and I still crack my neck if I see one. The V8 is an awesome engine and the sound is great as well, Quattro provides a safe ride. All together, a great car. But I am afraid the steering-feel will be the same as in my A4 S-line 1.8TFSI /211hp (tuned). I know it's safe as hell (not like the new models) and I totally trust my car, but somehow I do not feel to be in touch with it that much, steering feels disconnected and I guess that's just the way Audi likes to build its cars. From what I understood even the RS5 has the same distant feel. It must be some sort of compromise Audi drivers are willing to take, I am not sure I will ever get used to it. At least I'm curious about …. the darkside
Another small problem I have with Audi are the seats, a.t.m. i have S-line sport-seats, but these do not hold me in place with a little bit of a sporty ride. (Please note I am not a small person, 6.5 ft/14.8 stone). I was hoping the S seats would be better and provided more support, unfortunately, they seem to be even bigger, a test drive might tell me something different maybe. Besides all, I know the S5 is a great, safe and powerful cruiser and I'm looking forward to give it a good try.
The BMW…
So I never even considered buying an M3 until I went to some dealer looking for a S5. Not that I didn't like it before, of course I have seen the video's, the happy faces of everyone who drives it and it is supposed to be the car we all should have driven at least once. I just feel the M3 might be way out of my league at this moment because I have to admit I am not such an experienced driver yet. On the other hand I realize I am the one in control of the pedals and I will take my time to get to know this "bitch on wheels". Maybe I should keep it in 1st gear first few months. If I buy a M3 of course I will invest in advanced driving courses (did one before), and maybe at a later stage some track experience. Even for a serious test drive I already asked the race-trainer to go with me, he knows all about the M3 and will also give it a go. And I will have it checked by a specialized garage as well.
But, just sitting in the M3 at the dealership makes me wanna drive it, I love how you can adjust the seats for maximum support while still have a luxurious feel. I do like the more upright and active driving position in the BMW, when it comes to ergonomics it all seems perfect. The interior might seem a little dated to some, but it all looks okay to me. To be honest, my eyes are on the road most of the time anyways. General looks, I might still favor the S5, but the M3 has some design details that just scream power and rebellion, it might be a bit overdone but it's all for a good reason from what I have understood. And I love the carbon roof, especially on silver it looks great. What scares me a little about this car is, well, everything, RWD, lots of HP and probably the temptation to wanna "play". The M3 is growing on me, in a good way.
I see both of them as class cars, but in a different league… I haven't driven a BMW so I can't fault it, I have yet to experience it.
Extended test drive's, also on wet roads (we dutchies have the same climate as you do in the UK), will make me help make up my mind. I need to check what running costs will be on both models, besides that insurance and tax are about the same. To drive or be driven seems to be the question and it is something I'm looking forward to experience.
I hope I have been able to explain myself, thanks again for your input, of course I will let you know what the follow up on this will be.
I really appreciate the comments and insights here, it seems there was little input needed to get this party started.
First of all I need to explain why I came across these two cars, because they shouldn't be compared too harsh as many of u have said. And I agree.
Initially I was looking for an S5, so I went to this dealer to have a look at one, it wasn't there. Some detailwork needed to be done, kinda disappointed, but it happens. So I was wandering through the showroom and "accidentally " ran into the M3 E92. That kinda made me think…..
Here's what my thoughts are on each car
Since I own an A4, let's start with the Audi:
I love the looks, even knowing it's a pimped out A5. It is a class design and I still crack my neck if I see one. The V8 is an awesome engine and the sound is great as well, Quattro provides a safe ride. All together, a great car. But I am afraid the steering-feel will be the same as in my A4 S-line 1.8TFSI /211hp (tuned). I know it's safe as hell (not like the new models) and I totally trust my car, but somehow I do not feel to be in touch with it that much, steering feels disconnected and I guess that's just the way Audi likes to build its cars. From what I understood even the RS5 has the same distant feel. It must be some sort of compromise Audi drivers are willing to take, I am not sure I will ever get used to it. At least I'm curious about …. the darkside
Another small problem I have with Audi are the seats, a.t.m. i have S-line sport-seats, but these do not hold me in place with a little bit of a sporty ride. (Please note I am not a small person, 6.5 ft/14.8 stone). I was hoping the S seats would be better and provided more support, unfortunately, they seem to be even bigger, a test drive might tell me something different maybe. Besides all, I know the S5 is a great, safe and powerful cruiser and I'm looking forward to give it a good try.The BMW…
So I never even considered buying an M3 until I went to some dealer looking for a S5. Not that I didn't like it before, of course I have seen the video's, the happy faces of everyone who drives it and it is supposed to be the car we all should have driven at least once. I just feel the M3 might be way out of my league at this moment because I have to admit I am not such an experienced driver yet. On the other hand I realize I am the one in control of the pedals and I will take my time to get to know this "bitch on wheels". Maybe I should keep it in 1st gear first few months
. If I buy a M3 of course I will invest in advanced driving courses (did one before), and maybe at a later stage some track experience. Even for a serious test drive I already asked the race-trainer to go with me, he knows all about the M3 and will also give it a go. And I will have it checked by a specialized garage as well.But, just sitting in the M3 at the dealership makes me wanna drive it, I love how you can adjust the seats for maximum support while still have a luxurious feel. I do like the more upright and active driving position in the BMW, when it comes to ergonomics it all seems perfect. The interior might seem a little dated to some, but it all looks okay to me. To be honest, my eyes are on the road most of the time anyways. General looks, I might still favor the S5, but the M3 has some design details that just scream power and rebellion, it might be a bit overdone but it's all for a good reason from what I have understood. And I love the carbon roof, especially on silver it looks great. What scares me a little about this car is, well, everything, RWD, lots of HP and probably the temptation to wanna "play". The M3 is growing on me, in a good way.
I see both of them as class cars, but in a different league… I haven't driven a BMW so I can't fault it, I have yet to experience it.
Extended test drive's, also on wet roads (we dutchies have the same climate as you do in the UK), will make me help make up my mind. I need to check what running costs will be on both models, besides that insurance and tax are about the same. To drive or be driven seems to be the question and it is something I'm looking forward to experience.
I hope I have been able to explain myself, thanks again for your input, of course I will let you know what the follow up on this will be.
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On what criteria are you basing this?
Regarding badging, branding and feeling "special", I think it's an approach both brands are making these days.
Back in the days of the B6 S4, it was top of the range and looked different to the normal models. Audi then made the S-Line stuff look just like the S4, leaving the new B7 RS4 as the only one visually superior. Surely there was room for an interim differentiator?
BMW are now moving down this road too, with 320d Sports looking like stunning,performance sports coupes.
Obviously they're just maximising revenue but I do find it disappointing.
Back to the OP I think it depends on how focused a sporting car you want it to be.
Both lovely cars, never driven either though.
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On the criteria that the V8 is a heavy, thirsty, slow revving lump of an engine, and the V6T is more economical, faster, more tunable, and a much better match for the car.
This is obviously my (and a number of people I've spoken to) opinion, and was the opinion I formed when I drove an S5 coupé and an S4 back to back (since then I've also driven an S5 cab with a V6T, and it re-affirmed my thoughts on the V6T).
That's progress for you I suppose. Depends what you want from a car, I agree with your criteria but the one missing is character.
I had the 40v V8, I wouldn't have thought it was substantially different from the 32v and slow revving is not a criticism I'd have considered. Being all aluminium it was the same weight as the outgoing 2.7 turbo too. I had a Milltek exhaust on and boy do I miss that engine and it's character. Day to day it was lovely car, as alluded to by others though it was no M3.
I had the 40v V8, I wouldn't have thought it was substantially different from the 32v and slow revving is not a criticism I'd have considered. Being all aluminium it was the same weight as the outgoing 2.7 turbo too. I had a Milltek exhaust on and boy do I miss that engine and it's character. Day to day it was lovely car, as alluded to by others though it was no M3.
This reminds me of the Chris Harris video of his remapped S4 against a RS4.
Within 10 seconds I'd emailed the link to my V6T S4 owning pal.
Did he get it chipped after he saw the vid? Amazing result really!
I wouldn't worry about the M3 being a handful if you're only used to AWD Audis. I came from an RS4, and my M3 feels just as planted as the RS4 did, albeit a lot more interesting to drive at the same time.
Point to point I could probably do it faster in the '4 as I don't consider myself that capable a driver. The idea though that the M3 will just throw you into a hedge the second your mind wanders to what you're having for tea is just a false one - admittedly a false one that I was also aware of when I moved to BMW.
I'm not particularly partisan either way, even though I now have an M3 - second one in fact. I did look at the RS5 too - and while it felt thunderously fast in a straight line, and sounded epic...it was a bit bland. I haven't however driven the S5.
If I wanted thunderously fast in a straight line, and epic sounds....I'd buy a C63 as that's still pretty engaging to drive.
Moving from AWD to RWD can feel a little odd - and I'll be the first to admit it's a little hard to explain why. For a start the steering feels so much more direct - I guess because it's not doing anything other than steering, with you effectively being 'pushed' around the bend rather than dragged through it (sigh, I can feel the arguments coming...).
Your point about driver training is a valid one anyway, regardless of whether you go for AWD or the RWD M3. I did some performance training years ago, and it taught me a lot about balancing a car through corners, and when to apply power. It's just as applicable to the M3 as it was my RS4.
I reckon whether you choose an S5 or an M3 you're going to end up with a great car, that you'll enjoy. M3 is end of life now, which could be something to consider - not quite sure where the S5 is on that life-cyle, sure others can advise.
Downsides to RWD? Well, there's some months in the UK you just can't use the power as the traction kicks in. To qualify what I mean, you can still try and access the power - it doesn't just throw you through a fence - it just won't let you as the traction will retard stuff. More so then I ever saw in the RS4. In the '4 you'd not worry about the wet for the most part and it'd go anyway.
I'll miss the S65 V8 when I change. It's an awesome powerplant!
Point to point I could probably do it faster in the '4 as I don't consider myself that capable a driver. The idea though that the M3 will just throw you into a hedge the second your mind wanders to what you're having for tea is just a false one - admittedly a false one that I was also aware of when I moved to BMW.
I'm not particularly partisan either way, even though I now have an M3 - second one in fact. I did look at the RS5 too - and while it felt thunderously fast in a straight line, and sounded epic...it was a bit bland. I haven't however driven the S5.
If I wanted thunderously fast in a straight line, and epic sounds....I'd buy a C63 as that's still pretty engaging to drive.
Moving from AWD to RWD can feel a little odd - and I'll be the first to admit it's a little hard to explain why. For a start the steering feels so much more direct - I guess because it's not doing anything other than steering, with you effectively being 'pushed' around the bend rather than dragged through it (sigh, I can feel the arguments coming...).
Your point about driver training is a valid one anyway, regardless of whether you go for AWD or the RWD M3. I did some performance training years ago, and it taught me a lot about balancing a car through corners, and when to apply power. It's just as applicable to the M3 as it was my RS4.
I reckon whether you choose an S5 or an M3 you're going to end up with a great car, that you'll enjoy. M3 is end of life now, which could be something to consider - not quite sure where the S5 is on that life-cyle, sure others can advise.
Downsides to RWD? Well, there's some months in the UK you just can't use the power as the traction kicks in. To qualify what I mean, you can still try and access the power - it doesn't just throw you through a fence - it just won't let you as the traction will retard stuff. More so then I ever saw in the RS4. In the '4 you'd not worry about the wet for the most part and it'd go anyway.
I'll miss the S65 V8 when I change. It's an awesome powerplant!
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@MacRS4. Thank you for your comment. I love the way you explain the difference in FW/AWD to RWD, its exactly what I'd like to experience. We all need to get pushed a little don't we? My main interest is the "fun" factor a M3 is supposed to give us petrolheads.
I am aware the M3 is not being build anymore, but if I can find a nice one with MT and not too many miles, I think it's a keeper for year's to come. Also because of the V8 maybe a future classic. I just can't find many negatives about it, except for preferences between manual or DCT. I did look at the C63, and even if I am willing to choose power/handling over beauty, I do not think I can get used to the Mercedes. Without judging, it's just not my type of car. But, maybe i should check it out, just to see what's different.
What you say about the RS5 is exactly what I have been reading on the Audiforums and the S is supposed to be even less "exciting". Should we really have sell our kidney's to be able to have some fun in a R8 v10?
Tomorrow I plan to make some calls to set-up some test drives for next week. I am looking forward to share my thoughts.
I am aware the M3 is not being build anymore, but if I can find a nice one with MT and not too many miles, I think it's a keeper for year's to come. Also because of the V8 maybe a future classic. I just can't find many negatives about it, except for preferences between manual or DCT. I did look at the C63, and even if I am willing to choose power/handling over beauty, I do not think I can get used to the Mercedes. Without judging, it's just not my type of car. But, maybe i should check it out, just to see what's different.
What you say about the RS5 is exactly what I have been reading on the Audiforums and the S is supposed to be even less "exciting". Should we really have sell our kidney's to be able to have some fun in a R8 v10?
Tomorrow I plan to make some calls to set-up some test drives for next week. I am looking forward to share my thoughts.