How much would a budget second hand projector set up roughly cost?

[Flare]

Next month I move to a new apartment which is perfect for a projector, so after years of wanting one I have decided that if I can get everything for the right about of money then I am going to take the plunge.

It's a pretty rubbish picture but here is a picture of the room

http://photos.mouseprice.com/Media/...\120\448\_IM\G_0\9\99921_MDN120448_IMG_09.jpg

As you can see it is very long with a nice big white wall at the end, it is screaming out for a projector!

As I don't have a massive amount of cash I am looking at second hand projectors & currently have my eye on the Optoma HD20 which still seems to be very popular and can be had for well under £300. How ever, if I was to get a projector I would need to buy everything else to go with it; the ceiling mount, a screen/DIY screen/painted wall, the amp/receiver and then the cabling.

What do you guys think the total cost for all of the above would be, not including the projector? I am trying to get a rough figure now but I am not quite sure what sort of receiver to be looking for.

Any information/tips would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

Flare

 

[lucid]

Budget for some decent light control.... curtains with blackout linings is probably the most cost effective. Go measure up the windows and see the local trades for who makes/supplies curtains. I think John Lewis still do made to measure.

Main accessories

• Projector mounts start for cheap on Ebay but the cheapest do tend to be fiddly to fit and adjust. Better to go for something with a ball joint. Start at say £30 going up to £200
• Long HDMI cable - 10mtr - £15-£20
• Some trunking to stick it to the wall/ceiling and make it look tidy - £40-£80
• Long mains cable for pj .... You might have to DIY this. Say £30 for bits.
• Screen.... at this stage don't bother. Cheap screens (<£200) are ruddy awful. They curl at the edges and don't lie flat. The result is that things moving across the screen show up the surface ripples horribly. Cheap = nasty = worthless when upgrading = waste of money now.
• BD player - If you aren't using a PS3 with it's built-in BD player then you'll need a disc spinner of sorts. Basic BD players start at under £60 including smart features. Wireless ones go from about £90 upwards.
• Speaker cable - You'll need some along with a subwoofer cable. Budget approx £50~£100 depending on lengths.

Home cinema system (These are starting price points. You'll get more features and better performance stepping up to the next higher couple of rungs. This makes better financial sense than spending bare minimum now and having then to upgrade in a year)....

Home Cinema Sound Systems

• < £170 - Yahama AV Receiver + speaker package. Doesn't do HD audio though. Not the end of the world, but if you're going to spend a bit of money then you want to buy something that includes all the current features.
• < £250 - Pioneer AV Receiver + speaker package. This one does do HD Audio. There's still a compromise though. The subwoofer is passive. i.e. it plugs in the receiver like an ordinary speaker. This is a bit of a limiting factor when it comes time to upgrade
• £350~£400 - packages of Yamaha AV receiver + various speaker kits. All the major bells & whistles ticked. This is where you want to be as a first time buyer.

Ancilliaries....

• other connection cables - HDMI, optical, coax, analogue. - Say £20-£30 depending on how many other devices you want to hook up
• fixings (screws/plugs/rawlbolts etc) - £20
• tools - have you got all the bits required to do this as a DIY job? - £unspecified.... how long is a piece of string?
• power - you'll need a multi-way of some sort and maybe extension leads too - £20 - £60
• equipment support - something for the amp, BD player and other sources to sit on - £unspecified.
• TV licence - £145.50 p.a.
• new projector lamp - £80-£90... because folk rarely sell a projector including a brand new lamp
• your time and the cost of running around getting everything together

 

[Psycho Sonny]

budget projector? lol

the running costs are so HUGE they will quickly overtake the buying costs, lamps need replacing regularly and they cost hundreds.

burn in is also a problem iirc.

also the picture will look terrible in anything other than a dark room.

also the more you customise the room the better the picture gets, the opposite can also be said that the less customised it is for a projector the worse the picture is.

customisation can be things like, dark carpet (to stop light shining and reflecting off it), dark walls and dark ceiling, even covering walls/ceiling with cloth/material to stop light, blackout blinds/curtains, etc, etc.

basically your better off with a large tv unless you have a lots of cash and a spare room to dedicate into a cinema setup.

head over to avforums, it has all the info you need on projectors and setting up a room correctly to house one.

even things like special projector paint can cost a lot of money, you shouldnt use it on a wall with normal paint, and im pretty sure it is supposed to have a grey tinge to it, instead of being pure white.

 

[lucid]

budget projector? lol

the running costs are so HUGE they will quickly overtake the buying costs, lamps need replacing regularly and they cost hundreds.

burn in is also a problem iirc.

also the picture will look terrible in anything other than a dark room.

also the more you customise the room the better the picture gets, the opposite can also be said that the less customised it is for a projector the worse the picture is.

customisation can be things like, dark carpet (to stop light shining and reflecting off it), dark walls and dark ceiling, even covering walls/ceiling with cloth/material to stop light, blackout blinds/curtains, etc, etc.

basically your better off with a large tv unless you have a lots of cash and a spare room to dedicate into a cinema setup.

head over to avforums, it has all the info you need on projectors and setting up a room correctly to house one.

even things like special projector paint can cost a lot of money, you shouldnt use it on a wall with normal paint, and im pretty sure it is supposed to have a grey tinge to it, instead of being pure white.

With respect, I have to disagree with almost all of Psycho Sonny's points here.

Yes, in the early days of projection, or with projectors geared towards ultimate black level then a dark-painted room is pretty essential. But walk in to any pub or bar with a small projector running now and you'll find images bright enough to be viewed in fairly light conditions. Budget home cinema projectors are capable of just such performance. No, they won't compete with direct sunlight just the same as you wouldn't buy a good Hi-Fi then sit listening to it at the side of a motorway. Sensible application of the product means better performance.

As for lamp life/costs.... The lamp for the Optoma is less than £90. It should last anywhere up to 1500 hrs or possibly longer. What kills lamps fast is short-cycling. Power on and then leave the projector on for a whole nights viewing gives better lamp life than switching on for an hour here and 30 minutes there.

Given that a projector is easily capable of an 80"+ screen size, you show me where I can buy and run an 80" TV for less than the combined cost of a budget projector a few lamps. The "horrific running costs" argument no longer has any currency.

Burn in.... on a DLP projector... I'd like to see the evidence please.

This morning I will be servicing the Optoma HD73 that I installed 5 years ago in a local heritage museum. The projector runs for 8 hours a day. Mostly it plays the same welcome film. The projector sits with the welcome screen on a static image for maybe 5 hours a day.... That's the same image displayed for over 1000 hrs per year. There is absolutely no sign of any image retention or burn in whatsoever.

The projector I removed 5 years ago was an LCD. That had to be replaced because the polarisers failed. This is a known issue with LCD projectors of old. This isn't burn in though. It's a fogging of the image caused by UV damage to the polarisers. It isn't by any means a universal issue with LCD projectors. The museum has a sister projector of the same age and type that plays on a constant loop. It has been fine. So, Psycho Sonny, please update your thinking on this because it is out of date. Thanks.

I can agree with the idea that the picture will improve if the room décor is optimised. Also I can agree that certain types of wall paint will help the image marginally.

All-in-all, this is a starter system. Yes, it would be lovely to build a bat cave and yadda yadda yadda....but it's not practical at this point. The HD20 on a wall will give a perfectly serviceable result and give plenty of scope for further improvement as budget allows. IMO it's a good choice.

 

[Flare]

Thanks for the two very detailed posts lucid, they have both been very helpful.

Psycho, cheers for the input but it wasn't the most helpful of posts.

Anyway, I will keep my eye out for a HD20, there seem to be plenty around. I've got my eye on a Epson TW2900 with only 24 hours lamp use at the moment but that is LCD & will probably go for more than the HD20.

The room I have although being white has good black out blinds already in place so light won't be an issue. Fortunately back home I already have some good speakers & sub which can be used so I would only need the receiver.

I'll have to see how things pan out when I am back in the country in two weeks as I am currently working abroad in Greece.

Thanks again for the great posts lucid, I really appreciate it.

 

[lucid]

For Psycho Sonny,

this is the DLP Optoma Themescene HD73 installed in the museum



and here's a really fuzzy crappy mobile phone shot of the welcome screen. 5+ hrs per day, 360+ days per year, for 5 years. Rough estimate would be 9000+hrs and counting ..... no screen burn.




And this is what polarizer failure looks like. See the yellow splodge in the centre of the projected image. That's what to look for.

 

[Flare]

Lucid, how do you rate the Yamaha RXV373? I see they are now down to £150 new so I should be able to get a second hand one for a decent price....depending if I find one that is!

Looking at screens is making my head spin a bit! Aha.

 

[Psycho Sonny]

how do you know if there's no "bulb" burn if you do not change the image?

 

[lucid]

how do you know if there's no "bulb" burn if you do not change the image?

Because they start and play the film. I'm sorry, but I would have thought that was obvious.

If they just wanted a static image then I could have done that with a big poster and some lights. No, this is a 50 seat cinema used for films and presentations (DVD, BD, laptop) so of course the image changes.

 

[lucid]

Lucid, how do you rate the Yamaha RXV373? I see they are now down to £150 new so I should be able to get a second hand one for a decent price....depending if I find one that is!

Looking at screens is making my head spin a bit! Aha.

I like Yamaha amps. In the last 3-4 years they've come back very strongly to compete in the lower mid-range and budget markets. I'm running a Yamaha myself at home (RX-V675).

The only thing I'd say is don't choose on price. As good as the 373 is, it's still an entry level amp. That might suit your needs right down to the ground. You should choose based on it ticking all your boxes rather than it just got a price cut.

The other thing to say is that second-hand prices don't always track the falls in new. Manufacturers will reposition prices to move stock or to capture market share. However, if you're the guy who bought the Yam when just launched at £250 do you really want to take such a spanking if you come to upgrade 6 months later?

You might get better value looking at higher range amps from 18~24 months ago. Yamaha 6- and 7-series, Onkyo 6-seriesn etc. More power, better audio processing, networking as standard, video scaling etc.

 

[Flare]

Cheers lucid. RS have the Onkyo 616 for £270 on clearance and, I know you did not mention it but, I have found someone selling a 515 for £180.

 

[Psycho Sonny]

Because they start and play the film. I'm sorry, but I would have thought that was obvious.

If they just wanted a static image then I could have done that with a big poster and some lights. No, this is a 50 seat cinema used for films and presentations (DVD, BD, laptop) so of course the image changes.

so the same image doesn't stay on screen for long then?

 

[Rroff]

budget projector? lol

the running costs are so HUGE they will quickly overtake the buying costs, lamps need replacing regularly and they cost hundreds.

burn in is also a problem iirc.

also the picture will look terrible in anything other than a dark room.

also the more you customise the room the better the picture gets, the opposite can also be said that the less customised it is for a projector the worse the picture is.

customisation can be things like, dark carpet (to stop light shining and reflecting off it), dark walls and dark ceiling, even covering walls/ceiling with cloth/material to stop light, blackout blinds/curtains, etc, etc.

basically your better off with a large tv unless you have a lots of cash and a spare room to dedicate into a cinema setup.

head over to avforums, it has all the info you need on projectors and setting up a room correctly to house one.

even things like special projector paint can cost a lot of money, you shouldnt use it on a wall with normal paint, and im pretty sure it is supposed to have a grey tinge to it, instead of being pure white.

I swear I've replied to almost exact same post from you before - might have been someone else - your information is coming up on 10 years out of date. Any fairly decent LED projector will easily get 5 years of heavy use out of it between bulb changes and more like 10 years with moderate use. I bought an Optoma HD70 720p DLP (not LED) in 2006ish and its only just coming up on needing a bulb change now* and its had fair use out of it - they or equivalents can be picked up pretty cheaply and still good for a lot of use tho 1080p is now fairly affordable.

While most projectors will struggle with directly sun lit rooms - these days most half decent projectors cope in indirect day light, even light curtains will give a very acceptable picture, tho obviously do far better in a properly blacked out room.

Do agree with the reccomendation for grey tinge on the screen/wall but that does depend somewhat on the projector.



* I have run it in eco mode with high altitude on for the extra fan cycle to prolong its life as in a dimmed room the extra brightness just isn't needed.

 

[lucid]

so the same image doesn't stay on screen for long then?

I can't decide whether you just don't follow, or it's that you're being obtuse because your preconceptions are being challenged. Normally you're quite sensible. So I'll take it that your feathers are somewhat ruffled.

Okay, here goes.

The projector is on for an average of 8 hours a day for 6 days per week.

For at least 5 of those 8 hours it displays the main menu welcome message (see pic in previous post)

For the remainder of those 8 hours it plays the movie - moving pictures, sound, the full bag of smashing.

Okay now. Are we totally crystal clear how this projector is used??

If there was the slightest possibility of image retention/screen burn occurring then you'd see the welcome screen message overlaid when watching the actual film. This isn't happening though because there is no screen burn. So, the point you made about image retention/burn in just doesn't hold water.


This and countless other projectors of the same kind operate in visitor attractions, call centres, operation centres, meeting rooms etc all over the world. In the 15 years I have been personally involved with DLP projectors I have never, ever, not once seen- or heard of- any case of image burn.

 

[lucid]

Cheers lucid. RS have the Onkyo 616 for £270 on clearance and, I know you did not mention it but, I have found someone selling a 515 for £180.

They're all good AV Receivers in their own class. What you need to do is look at the feature list of each and decide what you'd find useful and what would be superfluous. For example, if you have an open plan living space then Zone 2 features seem pretty redundant to me. However, I think network features are really useful. I like listening to the radio in the morning and to music when cooking or when working on the laptop. So being able to stream internet radio and play music from my NAS drive is a useful feature to me.

The other thing I find really useful when streaming radio and music is a control App feature. It means I don't need to switch on the display to control the amp.

So, what's your list look like?

 

[Psycho Sonny]

I can't decide whether you just don't follow, or it's that you're being obtuse because your preconceptions are being challenged. Normally you're quite sensible. So I'll take it that your feathers are somewhat ruffled.

Okay, here goes.

The projector is on for an average of 8 hours a day for 6 days per week.

For at least 5 of those 8 hours it displays the main menu welcome message (see pic in previous post)

For the remainder of those 8 hours it plays the movie - moving pictures, sound, the full bag of smashing.

Okay now. Are we totally crystal clear how this projector is used??

If there was the slightest possibility of image retention/screen burn occurring then you'd see the welcome screen message overlaid when watching the actual film. This isn't happening though because there is no screen burn. So, the point you made about image retention/burn in just doesn't hold water.


This and countless other projectors of the same kind operate in visitor attractions, call centres, operation centres, meeting rooms etc all over the world. In the 15 years I have been personally involved with DLP projectors I have never, ever, not once seen- or heard of- any case of image burn.

ok i get how it's used now.

i'm pretty sure someone told me that projectors had burn issues on the lamps, but i take it that isn't true then judging by this using a static image for so long day in day out with zero issues.

the main thing putting me off a projector was PQ, i would want it to be similar to my GT50, therefore I would need a dedicated room, and spend a lot of money on modding the room to get the best picture possible.

 

[Rroff]

This and countless other projectors of the same kind operate in visitor attractions, call centres, operation centres, meeting rooms etc all over the world. In the 15 years I have been personally involved with DLP projectors I have never, ever, not once seen- or heard of- any case of image burn.

It was an issue with earlier possibly non DLP projectors - can't really remember what the tech was now - talking early 90s tho probably. Most of his knowledge of projectors seems to be based on 10+ year old information/experience.

 

[lucid]

i'm pretty sure someone told me that projectors had burn issues on the lamps, but i take it that isn't true then judging by this using a static image for so long day in day out with zero issues.

I think you've got some info mixed up to do with different types of projectors.

The lamp in a DLP/LCD/LED projector can't burn in an "image-retention" way. It's a light source. It doesn't have anything to do with the creation of the image except for providing illumination.

The only type of projector that fits your description is a CRT projector. The light source in these is three high-intensity CRT tubes. These are the sort of size you'd find on an oscilloscope (7", 8" or 9" diagonal). The tubes are monochrome. That doesn't mean Black & White. It means single colour. There's a red, a blue and a green tube. Each tube produces an incredible amount of light. They're so bright in normal use that they can't be viewed directly. It is possible to turn up the contrast even further so that they produce even more light. If abused in this way and then subject to static images for extended periods then the phosphor coating that makes the light will wear in a distinct pattern. This accelerated wear is permanent. This is screen burn.

Since CRT projectors are, by and large, obsolete for the domestic consumer market then reference to image burn really is academic. These projectors are available in the used market though, and 9" CRT projectors such as the Barco 1209s, Barco Cine 9, Sony G90, Marquee's and high-end NECs are still regarded as the holy grail in ultimate image quality terms. I am one of perhaps three or four people in the UK capable of getting the most from these beasts. Just last Friday I installed a Barco 1209s for a customer. The image is spectacular. CRTs have qualities that digitals just can't get near. The ability to drive a CRT at any refresh rate means that panning judder and image flicker issues just disappear. Don't get me wrong, CRTs don't hold all the aces. If you want bright then a digital is still the best solution. Also, doing 2:40:1 is easier with a digital. But in so many other respects a high-end CRT is still the king of image quality. Bringing this back to screen burn; when set up and used correctly then image burn is not an issue.

the main thing putting me off a projector was PQ, i would want it to be similar to my GT50, therefore I would need a dedicated room, and spend a lot of money on modding the room to get the best picture possible.

That's a perfectly reasonable goal.

What surprises many folk is just how good the scaling is in many projectors. TVs get away with murder in this respect because the image is so small in relative terms. With projectors there's nowhere to hide such poor performance. This goes for budget projectors as much as higher models.

 

[Lethagized]

I paid...

£230 for the panasonic ax100.

£15 for the yamaha cinema amp and yamaha 5.1 speaker set

And £50 for a 92" optoma screen.

It's all running off an old dell HTPC running XBMC. All second hand, but perfectly acceptable for a first time home cinema enthusiast. The picture is fantastic to say it's only 720p, the projector won lots of awards back in it's day, and the sound system rumbles the house.

I will be upgrading it all in the years to come. Tab tensioned electric screen, a newer 1080p projector and newer HD audio amp, but for now it's surprisingly fantastic viewing experience for what it is and the price i've paid. Fantastic hobby to get into and you'll never want to watch a film on tv again without the surround sound and big screen.

 

[Rroff]

The lamp in a DLP/LCD/LED projector can't burn in an "image-retention" way. It's a light source. It doesn't have anything to do with the creation of the image except for providing illumination.

I'd swear there was another type back in the 90s or so that was quite popular as an alternative to DLP (due to the viewing problems some people had) where it was a problem, my memory on that is quite hazy tho.