How would someone acting in a selfish manner to the detriment of others, not be seen as bad?
If you just want to refer to concerns of the self then call them something neutral like egocentric.
Consequences of public suicide
- Thread starter Maccapacca
- Start date
If you just want to refer to concerns of the self then call them something neutral like egocentric.
Why? For all intents and purposes they mean exactly the same thing.
Selfish doesn't mean to the detriment of others. It means without consideration to others.
Exactlky my thoughts too.
Although I was thinking more going into the woods where you are less likely to be found, hopefully give some wildlife a feed and no one needs to have the shock of finding a "person"
I would certainly be massively less shocked to find some "carcass" in the woods than I would a bath full of putrid mess.
They are not the same.
Selfishness requires other people and for those people to be affected (nominally in a negative way)
Egocentric is just ignoring other people and as such it is irrelevant if there are people there or not, as would be the probable attitude of a suicider. Whether the train has a driver or not is irrelevant to him, just so long as it is doing 100km/hr
I can see what you are getting at (the use of the word selfish in a pejorative way may not be the intent), it's just not the correct word.
Look up the medical analysis of suicide and depression, it's always linked to egocentrism
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I think blanket statements like "they're selfish" just show lack of understanding to an extent. I'm sure we all know extremely selfish people, but they are still around, despite how bad times are/have been in their lives, and then there are people that have never acted selfishly that have killed themselves (of course this works both ways).
My Mum, on the day she died, still went out shopping to pick up the things she said she would, a prescription for my brother, medicine for our pet etc. Yet hours later, she had hung herself, there was no real suicide note, just scribbles on a page with words like "pain" "agony" etc, and the writing was messy, large and almost childlike, nothing like her normal writing. To me this things show me someone that was very sick, not merely selfish. Of course everyone has their own view, but I am one of the people that has been touched by it, and thankfully, most people haven't.
As I said in a previous post, she had suffered seriously with depression, phobia and anxiety for most of her life, and many times she said the ONLY thing that kept her around was her family, so it would appear something just snapped. Unfortunately, we don't know what is or isn't going through someone's head moments before they kill themselves, so I don't think it's fair to label them as something as we simply do not know.
My Mum, on the day she died, still went out shopping to pick up the things she said she would, a prescription for my brother, medicine for our pet etc. Yet hours later, she had hung herself, there was no real suicide note, just scribbles on a page with words like "pain" "agony" etc, and the writing was messy, large and almost childlike, nothing like her normal writing. To me this things show me someone that was very sick, not merely selfish. Of course everyone has their own view, but I am one of the people that has been touched by it, and thankfully, most people haven't.
As I said in a previous post, she had suffered seriously with depression, phobia and anxiety for most of her life, and many times she said the ONLY thing that kept her around was her family, so it would appear something just snapped. Unfortunately, we don't know what is or isn't going through someone's head moments before they kill themselves, so I don't think it's fair to label them as something as we simply do not know.
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Swim/Pinch boat
You are misunderstanding the context that selfish is used in.
The context is that suicide is often a very selfish act as there has been no consideration afforded to those who have to deal with the aftermath of the situation.
No one is saying that killing yourself is the end result for all selfish people, this shows that you have a lack of understanding yourself.
You are too concerned with the term "selfish" itself, when it's not really the issue. As above, the act of suicide is often selfish in that they aren't concerned with how it will damage the people who find them in that state.
We'll never know but potentially his mum wanted to end things for years and didn't do so until her family were in a position to support themselves without her (e.g. old enough or settled enough). In a possible scenario like that is someone still selfish or maybe the opposite - selfless?
My mum has said several times that if she were to get terminally ill or simply long term ill with no prospect of recovery then she would probably kill herself. I don't see that as selfish at all but simply her life to do as she feels right On the contrary I feel I would be selfish to expect her to live in pain (emotional or physical) when she wanted to end it.
I've been through some very dark emotional periods in my life and can understand, at least to a small extent, what must drive people to make a decision to end things.
This brings me back to earlier points, and the negative connotations with the word "selfish".
It is selfish, because no one else is being considered. That is aside from what they're going through and whatever else, but it's still a selfish self centered act.
This is very different, a terminal illness isn't comparable at all, said person knows they are going to die what is likely going to be a horrible awful undignified death and would rather go out before they get to that terrible state. Completely different.
The issue is the connotations, society lately seems to take issue with people calling a spade a spade, they have to fluff it up a bit and endow it with unjustified exaggerative words before it's considered acceptable to comment on.
Personally, I think this is cheap, tactless and just dilutes the situation to be a bit of a parody of what it should be.
Why do any of us have the right to expect someone else to consider us, even if they are family or friends?
What about a condition, physical or mental, that caused immense ongoing, long-term distress to someone with what seems, at least to them, little hope of improving?
I'm not fluffing anything up. A spade is a spade. Some people simply don't want to continue living. I'm not really sure why we should expect that they do continue living in physical or emotional pain. I can see exceptions to that - e.g. when you have young children who depend on you. But for me, I personally feel it's selfish of adult friends and family to expect someone to continue when they don't want to.
I would want the person to talk openly about it and seek all possible help and support first but ultimately it is their life to do with as they please.
I think you are also misunderstanding me, I will agree that the act of suicide is selfish, but the person themselves, may be anything but that. The point I was trying to make, it from what I knew of my mum, and what was pieced together from what happened, there was no rational part of the brain thinking "this is selfish" "my family will find me" etc, just weren't present, the only thing present was "I have to end this".
I have always said, and will continue to say, I would never commit suicide, because of the damage it does to those around you, however, I have always been able to keep rationality and reality at the forefront of my thoughts, so I can't imagine what happens when you don't.
I agree with NickNR, we can never know what feelings a suicidal person has moments before ending their own lives.
There has been a case recently in the USA of a 'reality star' (Gia Allemand) who hanged herself whilst on the phone to her mother, surely if she was thinking rationally she would have spared her mother this ordeal?
As said by another poster on here, 'There but for the grace of God, go I'.
There has been a case recently in the USA of a 'reality star' (Gia Allemand) who hanged herself whilst on the phone to her mother, surely if she was thinking rationally she would have spared her mother this ordeal?
As said by another poster on here, 'There but for the grace of God, go I'.
Actually Webbo on the forums does something like this, i'm sure he'll tell you more about it. Made me feel a bit queezy!
I manage the railways response to the incident. Let me begin by saying these are my personal thoughts and reflections on the subject and do not represent the company I work for.
The sad incident generally goes one of two ways depending on the evidence found by the Police/incident response staff. Obvious clues are suicide notes, neatly folded clothes on the end of a platform etc. Bizarrely, some people will get undressed before committing the act of suicide. One theory is they are leaving this world they way thy came into it - naked. Evidence of suicide causes minimal disruption to train services as the area is no longer treat as a scene of crime. When there are no obvious signs the whole process, rightly, takes much longer to resolve until the police are satisfied no crime was committed. At all times the respect of the deceased is paramount. If their are witnesses this saves a lot of time and effort as no staff need to be medically screened for drugs and alcohol if it was clearly a suicide. You see, a driver will be the 'accused' until proven otherwise which is wrong but it is a necessary mechanism to clear him/her of any wrong doing. If the train is close by I will request the screening myself simply to get the driver released asap, preferably accompanied by another driver or guard but occasionally they are deemed not fit to continue and require relieving of duty where they are stood. Until the incident is deemed a suicide, it is a scene of crime which is an extremely lengthy process, more so if the area is remote as the SOCO can take hours to reach the scene.
All staff (Train driver(s) Guards, response staff, Police) are offered support from their own companies amd have a variety of support mechanisms available. There is no set time a driver or anyone responding to the incident is given time off because every person is affected differently. Some drivers and reponse staff never come back sadly, such is the traumatic effect. My company use both Care First and the Samaritans. Both of which are extremely good. I have sought support after a particularly traumatic episode some 2 weeks after the incident. It didn't effect me at the time but it played on my mind so much I just needed a someone to pour out to. No shame in that imo and certainly no sign of weakness. Its not the gore, its the story behind the gore that gets to you - who was she, how are her family, why did she do it, what was she going through etc? You can tie yourself in knots trying to work it all out. As a rule of thumb I deliberately refer to the dead as a 'body' even if I know their name to remove personalisation. It's not about being insensitive, it's a form of self protection. While we obviously remember 'it' as a person and treat the body as such with respect, it does no good at all to dwell on the 'whys' and 'what fors'. I have a wife and kids, excellent supportive colleagues but sometimes it pays to speak to someone you don't know, someone who won't judge but who will just listen.
Anyway, I digress.
A train driver is usually relieved of duty either at the scene or at the next station but can continue with the journey depending how they are/feel as some locations are so remote it is quicker to get them relieved at the next station/terminal. Some drivers are affected more than others which obviously depends on the severity of the incident and experience. Imagine staring down the track and seeing someone staring back at you just waiting to be hit by the train. Knowing you can do very little to avoid the person (trains cannot stop on a sixpence). This must be harrowing. On the flip-side sometimes drivers are totally unaware they have hit a person and simply report a bump on the track and are not aware of the circumstances until they are relived at their destination. Occasionally, a train can be severely damaged by striking a person and cannot be moved. Other times it just needs to be cleaned (for obvious reasons).
I won't go into the gory details but the after effects range from what resembles a dark stained bundle of rags to small chunks of flesh. Each incident is different depending on the impact conditions/speed etc. Survival rates are low as you would expect which goes some way to explaining the 'attraction' of suicide on the railway due to ultimate finality of the incidents. It is rare an ambulance is required other than to legally confirm the person is dead (despite the obvious this needs to be done before the body parts can be removed). No train movements can be made until the person is identified by a Doctor or paramedic that they are medically deceased. The larger body parts are removed by the police, myself and undertakers. We have to do a count up of the parts to ensure it has 2 arms, two legs a torso head, feet and hands etc. The last thing we want is a train to come to a stand at a signal with grandma looking out of the window only to find a decapitated head staring back at her! Once all recognisable body parts are removed train movements can resume. The clean up team then have to begin the process of cleaning platforms, viaducts, trackside ballast etc depending on the circumstances between the passage of trains. Blood is not classed as recognisable however the offending train would be taken out of service and cleaned up as you wouldn't want a Virgin Pendolino arriving into London Euston dripping with blood or a chunk of skull stuck in the coupling for obvious reasons.
It is easy to say people who commit suicide are selfish or cowards. It is my belief, not my companies'(as with the whole of this post just so I don't get in trouble), that those who attempt to commit suicide are simply not in the right state of mind to think of themselves, never mind the effect their act would have on others. I find it despicable when I hear accusations against those involved. Who are we to judge whether the person is selfish, or a coward. You cannot judge unless you are in their place which frankly, I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy.
Sadly, as I have described above, the effect of suicide on the railways usually affects more than just the family of the deceased. Response staff, train drivers, emergency services, undertakers, clean up teams, all are affected by it albeit on different levels. Also, indirectly those held up on the following train are affected, perhaps even cursing the railway without knowing the full extent of what has happened or what the people involved are having to deal with to ensure they get to their destination safely with minimal delay.
I guess I have become somewhat desensitised now through experience but there are still instances when you second guess what was going through the subjects mind. The emergency services deserve a medal for what they do as they deal with this everyday. Thankfully, my response to bodies on the line is not a regular occurrence, at least not to the extent of the emergency services.
I would hope that should anyone commit suicide they would think of the effects it has on others, perhaps more so on the railway than in seclusion somewhere. Sadly, I very much doubt those poor souls are not of the right frame of mind to think this way, else they wouldn't be in the position they are in.
It puts life into perspective; how precious life is, how easily it is extinguished and how lucky we all are to be without such problems when you experience these harrowing events.
The sad incident generally goes one of two ways depending on the evidence found by the Police/incident response staff. Obvious clues are suicide notes, neatly folded clothes on the end of a platform etc. Bizarrely, some people will get undressed before committing the act of suicide. One theory is they are leaving this world they way thy came into it - naked. Evidence of suicide causes minimal disruption to train services as the area is no longer treat as a scene of crime. When there are no obvious signs the whole process, rightly, takes much longer to resolve until the police are satisfied no crime was committed. At all times the respect of the deceased is paramount. If their are witnesses this saves a lot of time and effort as no staff need to be medically screened for drugs and alcohol if it was clearly a suicide. You see, a driver will be the 'accused' until proven otherwise which is wrong but it is a necessary mechanism to clear him/her of any wrong doing. If the train is close by I will request the screening myself simply to get the driver released asap, preferably accompanied by another driver or guard but occasionally they are deemed not fit to continue and require relieving of duty where they are stood. Until the incident is deemed a suicide, it is a scene of crime which is an extremely lengthy process, more so if the area is remote as the SOCO can take hours to reach the scene.
All staff (Train driver(s) Guards, response staff, Police) are offered support from their own companies amd have a variety of support mechanisms available. There is no set time a driver or anyone responding to the incident is given time off because every person is affected differently. Some drivers and reponse staff never come back sadly, such is the traumatic effect. My company use both Care First and the Samaritans. Both of which are extremely good. I have sought support after a particularly traumatic episode some 2 weeks after the incident. It didn't effect me at the time but it played on my mind so much I just needed a someone to pour out to. No shame in that imo and certainly no sign of weakness. Its not the gore, its the story behind the gore that gets to you - who was she, how are her family, why did she do it, what was she going through etc? You can tie yourself in knots trying to work it all out. As a rule of thumb I deliberately refer to the dead as a 'body' even if I know their name to remove personalisation. It's not about being insensitive, it's a form of self protection. While we obviously remember 'it' as a person and treat the body as such with respect, it does no good at all to dwell on the 'whys' and 'what fors'. I have a wife and kids, excellent supportive colleagues but sometimes it pays to speak to someone you don't know, someone who won't judge but who will just listen.
Anyway, I digress.
A train driver is usually relieved of duty either at the scene or at the next station but can continue with the journey depending how they are/feel as some locations are so remote it is quicker to get them relieved at the next station/terminal. Some drivers are affected more than others which obviously depends on the severity of the incident and experience. Imagine staring down the track and seeing someone staring back at you just waiting to be hit by the train. Knowing you can do very little to avoid the person (trains cannot stop on a sixpence). This must be harrowing. On the flip-side sometimes drivers are totally unaware they have hit a person and simply report a bump on the track and are not aware of the circumstances until they are relived at their destination. Occasionally, a train can be severely damaged by striking a person and cannot be moved. Other times it just needs to be cleaned (for obvious reasons).
I won't go into the gory details but the after effects range from what resembles a dark stained bundle of rags to small chunks of flesh. Each incident is different depending on the impact conditions/speed etc. Survival rates are low as you would expect which goes some way to explaining the 'attraction' of suicide on the railway due to ultimate finality of the incidents. It is rare an ambulance is required other than to legally confirm the person is dead (despite the obvious this needs to be done before the body parts can be removed). No train movements can be made until the person is identified by a Doctor or paramedic that they are medically deceased. The larger body parts are removed by the police, myself and undertakers. We have to do a count up of the parts to ensure it has 2 arms, two legs a torso head, feet and hands etc. The last thing we want is a train to come to a stand at a signal with grandma looking out of the window only to find a decapitated head staring back at her! Once all recognisable body parts are removed train movements can resume. The clean up team then have to begin the process of cleaning platforms, viaducts, trackside ballast etc depending on the circumstances between the passage of trains. Blood is not classed as recognisable however the offending train would be taken out of service and cleaned up as you wouldn't want a Virgin Pendolino arriving into London Euston dripping with blood or a chunk of skull stuck in the coupling for obvious reasons.
It is easy to say people who commit suicide are selfish or cowards. It is my belief, not my companies'(as with the whole of this post just so I don't get in trouble), that those who attempt to commit suicide are simply not in the right state of mind to think of themselves, never mind the effect their act would have on others. I find it despicable when I hear accusations against those involved. Who are we to judge whether the person is selfish, or a coward. You cannot judge unless you are in their place which frankly, I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy.
Sadly, as I have described above, the effect of suicide on the railways usually affects more than just the family of the deceased. Response staff, train drivers, emergency services, undertakers, clean up teams, all are affected by it albeit on different levels. Also, indirectly those held up on the following train are affected, perhaps even cursing the railway without knowing the full extent of what has happened or what the people involved are having to deal with to ensure they get to their destination safely with minimal delay.
I guess I have become somewhat desensitised now through experience but there are still instances when you second guess what was going through the subjects mind. The emergency services deserve a medal for what they do as they deal with this everyday. Thankfully, my response to bodies on the line is not a regular occurrence, at least not to the extent of the emergency services.
I would hope that should anyone commit suicide they would think of the effects it has on others, perhaps more so on the railway than in seclusion somewhere. Sadly, I very much doubt those poor souls are not of the right frame of mind to think this way, else they wouldn't be in the position they are in.
It puts life into perspective; how precious life is, how easily it is extinguished and how lucky we all are to be without such problems when you experience these harrowing events.
Soldato
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You'd still get washed up on the beach somewhere and found by some terrified dog walker, so even this scenario would affect others.
everything stops,
scenes of crime attend, and record the area, driver questioned and goes home,
white coats come in and bags what it can for the coroner,
specialist cleaning company comes in and cleans the area, same peeps who clean up murder scenes etc,
area assessed by engineers to be made safe,
life goes on.
scenes of crime attend, and record the area, driver questioned and goes home,
white coats come in and bags what it can for the coroner,
specialist cleaning company comes in and cleans the area, same peeps who clean up murder scenes etc,
area assessed by engineers to be made safe,
life goes on.
Today my journey was delayed by someone jumping onto the tracks at East Croydon, whilst being pretty sad that someone takes their own life and I'm not moaning about the delay in anyway shape or form it got me thinking about the collateral effects. Who cleans up? what do the train drivers then do? do they get support from their companies? how do the emergency services deal with something like this?
http://www.croydonguardian.co.uk/ne...trains_after_man_hit_at_East_Croydon_station/
It also happened 6 months a go with a mother and child on my route which very sad.
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/lond...ding-her-child-jump-on-to-tracks-8545387.html
Tonight it'll be back to normal like nothing ever happened
Didn't read the whole thread so sorry if this has already been said.
My uncle is a train engineer, When they have to clean bodies from the trains, they get to go home early and have a few weeks off paid from work. (Arriva Trains).
Great read and a great insight into what happens when some decides there is no other option in life.