Are Valve and AMD about to ruin PC gaming?

Gregster · 14 Oct 2013 at 10:39

Final8y said:
It does not matter what you expect and my point has nothing to do with the general argument and I dismissed it on logic because the economies of scale is just not there to charge less than pennies for it to be worth it.

And it would be a good idea for you not to keep making up reasons and answers for me when you have not got a clue besides a typical reason and response.

I asked for I link because I though you may have something that I had not already read

A typical reason and response is what people do.

It doesn't matter what we think anyway, as that was then and this is now. So many times I have read that PhysX is rubbish and not worth it (always from AMD owners I must add) but the fact remains that had AMD adopted it, we might well of seen it used far more, And to the benefit of us gamers. The few games it is in is quite poor and I would have loved to have seen it used more and to more effect. It is gamers who miss out because of possible stubborness.

teppic · 14 Oct 2013 at 10:44

Gregster said:
So many times I have read that PhysX is rubbish and not worth it (always from AMD owners I must add)

Performs badly on my 670 SLI, generally looks rubbish, and isn't worth it

Gregster · 14 Oct 2013 at 10:48

It is all 'tit for tat'

PhysX is dead, (by the way it wasn't Nvidia who invented it, it was Ageia, so that statement is wrong) so we don't want it and OpenCL is the way forward with truly open standards. AMD believes in 'open standards' (but you know that Mantle is GCN open and who uses GCN?).... Cuda isn't wanted by anyone either. OpenGL doesn't get a mention??? I am not clued up enough to talk on the ins and outs of how OpenGL/OpenCL/DX/PhysX/Mantle/Nvapi works and wouldn't want to make myself look stupid by making **** up that I know nothing about but for me it does seem that before long we will need a GPU from either side to see the game in all its glory and this will just push more and more people to consoles.

Gregster · 14 Oct 2013 at 10:50

teppic said:
Performs badly on my 670 SLI, generally looks rubbish, and isn't worth it

What game/s? Maybe we can find a fix

Final8y · 14 Oct 2013 at 10:51

Gregster said:
A typical reason and response is what people do.

You should stop treating everyone as typical and let them give there own reasons.
No point you talking on a forum otherwise if you think you know all the the responses and can't help making them for them.

Gregster · 14 Oct 2013 at 10:52

Final8y said:
You should stop treating everyone as typical and let them give there own reasons.
No point you talking on a forum otherwise if you think you all the answers.

If you think I have said anything out of order, please report it. I am on thin ice as it is, so feel free.

Silent_Scone · 14 Oct 2013 at 11:13

What makes you think PhysX is dead? PhysX is far from dead yet. In fact it's just getting started.

PlanetSide 2, Metro Last Light, Batman Origins and next year Witcher 3. It's not exactly overwhelming but dead it is not. Certainly more fruitful thus far than AMDS equally as proprietary Mantle at the moment. I'm aware it's not even gotten off the ground yet, but still true.

teppic · 14 Oct 2013 at 11:14

Gregster said:
What game/s? Maybe we can find a fix

Batman AA and AC - sometimes causes massive FPS drops and the effects aren't realistic (other than smoke, but that's hardly a PhysX exclusive). In Mirror's Edge I had to hack the installation to get it to use a different PhysX DLL to stop it dropping to around 5fps whenever any effects appeared. From what I've seen in Metro 2033 it just makes it perform badly. So far I haven't found a game where it's impressive or issue free, though I hear Borderlands 2 is the main game it's good for.

Silent_Scone · 14 Oct 2013 at 11:18

teppic said:
Batman AA and AC - sometimes causes massive FPS drops and the effects aren't realistic (other than smoke, but that's hardly a PhysX exclusive). In Mirror's Edge I had to hack the installation to get it to use a different PhysX DLL to stop it dropping to around 5fps whenever any effects appeared. From what I've seen in Metro 2033 it just makes it perform badly. So far I haven't found a game where it's impressive or issue free, though I hear Borderlands 2 is the main game it's good for.

What drivers? There are few Physx builds that when paired with certain drivers cause that kind of performance e.g. slideshow. Try updating to the latest betas and include the PhysX in the install.

teppic · 14 Oct 2013 at 11:20

MjFrosty said:
What drivers? There are few Physx builds that when paired with certain drivers cause that kind of performance e.g. slideshow. Try updating to the latest betas and include the PhysX in the install.

I just use the PhysX version that comes with whatever drivers I install. Even if it's working ok, in the games I've played it's not added anything much -- or it's added stuff that already exists in other games that don't use PhysX. Whenever I find a problem I do a search, and find tons of posts on it, with often the answer 'just turn it off'.

Final8y · 14 Oct 2013 at 11:22

Gregster said:
If you think I have said anything out of order, please report it. I am on thin ice as it is, so feel free.

Never used the report button and I don't know why you think I should, saying something out of order is a different things entirely.

Gregster · 14 Oct 2013 at 11:27

MjFrosty said:
What makes you think PhysX is dead? PhysX is far from dead yet. In fact it's just getting started.

PlanetSide 2, Metro Last Light, Batman Origins and next year Witcher 3. It's not exactly overwhelming but dead it is not. Certainly more fruitful thus far than AMDS equally as proprietary Mantle at the moment. I'm aware it's not even gotten off the ground yet, but still true.

I have read that so many times but see games being released that use PhysX. It doesn't matter and I would love to see it used more and if Nvidia are smart, they will be developing something to counter Mantle or seriously pushing PhysX (I would hope anyways).

d_brennen · 14 Oct 2013 at 11:30

teppic said:
I just use the PhysX version that comes with whatever drivers I install. Even if it's working ok, in the games I've played it's not added anything much -- or it's added stuff that already exists in other games that don't use PhysX. Whenever I find a problem I do a search, and find tons of posts on it, with often the answer 'just turn it off'.

Turn it off?! You'll miss Batman's leaf blower utility belt attachment

Silent_Scone · 14 Oct 2013 at 11:33

teppic said:
I just use the PhysX version that comes with whatever drivers I install. Even if it's working ok, in the games I've played it's not added anything much -- or it's added stuff that already exists in other games that don't use PhysX. Whenever I find a problem I do a search, and find tons of posts on it, with often the answer 'just turn it off'.

A lot of PhysX implemented in the games you are playing are quite old and do tend to offload a lot more performance to the CPU. It might just be that your 670s basically just aren't up to it.

Gregster · 14 Oct 2013 at 11:34

teppic said:
Batman AA and AC - sometimes causes massive FPS drops and the effects aren't realistic (other than smoke, but that's hardly a PhysX exclusive). In Mirror's Edge I had to hack the installation to get it to use a different PhysX DLL to stop it dropping to around 5fps whenever any effects appeared. From what I've seen in Metro 2033 it just makes it perform badly. So far I haven't found a game where it's impressive or issue free, though I hear Borderlands 2 is the main game it's good for.

Very strange, as I ran Batman AC very well on my 680's with PhysX and that was at 5760x1080. Loved it and played through it twice. I will admit to not having a fps counter running (I never do when I enjoy a game) but it never went sluggish.

And agreed, it could be better but I do like the subtle effecys that PhysX brings and it is a personal thing. I never played BL2 but people said it was overkill in that game and others said it made it look very good, so all personal preference.

Silent_Scone · 14 Oct 2013 at 11:40

Gregster said:
I have read that so many times but see games being released that use PhysX. It doesn't matter and I would love to see it used more and if Nvidia are smart, they will be developing something to counter Mantle or seriously pushing PhysX (I would hope anyways).

I know this is just one example - so don't take this as me saying "Oh yeah well check this **** out"

but this looks like a pretty good implementation of it. No OpenCL comments please from anyone. Go and buy a company out yourself and then deal with all the whining from people asking to let them use the technology you've paid for for free.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5LJH-2k3LBM

GoogalyMoogaly · 14 Oct 2013 at 11:41

Going back to the original question of the thread. I don't think either will ruin PC gaming. I think it'll take a while for either to gain any real traction.
DirectX has a pretty firm foothold at the minute and it'll take a while to phase out, if that's even what is going to happen.
OpenGL has been kicking about for a while, but hasn't really taken off. It sounds like it would be good if it did as we may see performance improvements as well not being tied to Windows. I guess if SteamOS uses it then it may come down to how much pull Steam/Valve has over the industry as to if it can convince people to use OpenGL as well as or instead of DirectX.
Mantle sounds great but I think the fact it is limited to such a small set of hardware currently means that Mantle support will be an optional extra, a nicety that some developers may include (EA/DICE for example). It can't replace DirectX or OpenGL until it gets a larger customer base. I guess in theory any game that supports Mantle could also run on Linux/OSX, but the developers would have to add that specifically too when creating the game. Considering the probably small subset of customers using a compatible GPU on Linux/OSX this may not be considered worthwhile (do we know if DICE will develop BF4 to run on Linux/OSX using Mantle?).

Basically both SteamOS/OpenGL and Mantle will need the backing of big developers. Mantle seems to have EA/DICE which is a good start, but it's lack of hardware support is an issue. OpenGL really needs some new AAA titles to show it can work.

d_brennen · 14 Oct 2013 at 11:43

^ If I had a proprietary USP, I'd wan't a good few quid to lend it out to my only competitor...

ubersonic · 14 Oct 2013 at 11:43

LtMatt said:
What does any of this matter anyway? Roy saw the light in the end.

Our industry doesn’t like proprietary standards. -snip- In the early days of our industry, you could get away with it and it worked. We’ve all had enough of it. They’re unhealthy. -snip- But that was then, this is now. Now, collectively our industry doesn’t want a proprietary standard. That’s why people are migrating to OpenCL.

Click to expand...

The fact that all applies 100% to Mantle is lolworthy to the Nth degree XD

Arthur Hucksake · 14 Oct 2013 at 12:16

SteamOS will be a failure, so will the SteamBox. Anyone who buys them will look back and think "Now why did I buy that? *Puts next to HD-DVD player".

Far too much vested interest from a multi-billion corporation with ties into the biggest of Western Governments.

It's just Gabe's wet dream of grandeur, that will be a pricey experiment for all involved.

Mantle will also end up the same way, pointless.... like PhysX is.