GF wants me to go to church with her......

^TANK^ said:
I thought this thread was based around gullibility :confused:
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No, it was about a chap asking advice about what to do about his situation with his girlfriend, but what we are getting is an excuse to bully, cajole and the usual 'haters gonna hate' rigmarole that happens whenever someone mentions religion or faith...it's like the words simply signal its time to ridicule and attack whoever they want based entirely on the fact that they hold a different perspective than they do.
 
Castiel said:
So neither you nor Hurfdurf understand the point being made here either....IT IS NOT A COMPARISON OF SCIENCE WITH RELIGION, but of the attitudes of how people accept things based on trust of others and not their own objective knowledge or understanding. No one said religion is the same a science..that was Angillions misunderstanding, nothing more.

Can we be any clearer than that.

The irony of one group accusing others of deception, disingenuity and prejudice while they are basically doing the same astounds me tbh...
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Well I actually didn't comment on the thread, just on the picture.
 
dirtychinchilla said:
Well I actually didn't comment on the thread, just on the picture.
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Perhaps, although your comment suggests that you feel being odious about someone's beliefs is acceptable....not to mention hurfdurf was quoting the very passage where the misconceptions lie.

There is a difference between valid objective criticism and simple prejudicial hatred. It just disappoints me that otherwise intelligent and objective people can be the polar opposite the minute someone says the word Religion, so much so that frankly I can't be asked to participate in such circular nonsense any longer.
 
As you well know, a lot of people are very frustrated by religion, and it's continuing existence. This is quite often displayed emotionally, as you might be able to appreciate given our frustrations. You're right though, this does decrease our rationality.
 
dirtychinchilla said:
As you well know, a lot of people are very frustrated by religion, and it's continuing existence. This is quite often displayed emotionally, as you might be able to appreciate given our frustrations. You're right though, this does decrease our rationality.
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Most of the time people are frustrated by either their own misconceptions and lack of understanding of another's religion or beliefs, or the way individuals interpret a belief or religious text to impose their own prejudices on another...this doesn't mean religion is any different from politics or any other human ideological precept used to form our social and cultural identities. People will believe in what they will, they will form collective social constructs around those beliefs...getting frustrated because humanity is doing what humanity has always done is futile and ultimately will just create another prejudicial social construct in order to impose a position on everyone they disagree with...I find the irony in this frustrating.

Be objectively critical by all means, there is enough about religions to be critical about without the need to resort to ridicule and sweeping generalisations, all that does is undermine any validity your opinion might actually have.

To be honest Dirtychinchilla, you are not really the one I am referring to specifically, but the forum in general...and from a personal perspective I am increasingly of a mind to stop participating in any kind of debate on religion, philosophy or spirituality as it all too often is just an excuse for airing prejudicial views and attacking others simply because they believe something different. I think this was what Freefaller was also making reference to.
 
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Castiel said:
Most of the time people are frustrated by either their own misconceptions and lack of understanding of another's religion or beliefs, or the way individuals interpret a belief or religious text to impose their own prejudices on another...this doesn't mean religion is any different from politics or any other human ideological precept used to form our social and cultural identities. People will believe in what they will, they will form collective social constructs around those beliefs...getting frustrated because humanity is doing what humanity has always done is futile and ultimately will just create another prejudicial social construct in order to impose a position on everyone they disagree with...I find the irony in this frustrating.

Be objectively critical by all means, there is enough about religions to be critical about without the need to resort to ridicule and sweeping generalisations, all that does is undermine any validity your opinion might actually have.
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My frustration comes from the latter; I can't understand religious people. I believed in God when I was a child, but knew no better. Since getting older, learning more, and maturing, it's just become obvious to me that, in my opinion, religious beliefs in God are false. I very much understand what you mean about the social constructs...it's hard to separate what is and what isn't a construct. I'd like to think that atheism, which I consider to be scientific principles (rightly or wrongly), is not a social construct, however.

I try to be objective, but it's not always easy. It's often hard to separate being objective and any other opinions I might have.
 
Just say "No love I find the seating arrangements very uncomfortable and its cold. Lets just lye in and cuddle for jesus." :) Morning wood is good !!! ;) So he said!!! :p
 
dirtychinchilla said:
My frustration comes from the latter; I can't understand religious people. I believed in God when I was a child, but knew no better. Since getting older, learning more, and maturing, it's just become obvious to me that, in my opinion, religious beliefs in God are false. I very much understand what you mean about the social constructs...it's hard to separate what is and what isn't a construct. I'd like to think that atheism, which I consider to be scientific principles (rightly or wrongly), is not a social construct, however.

I try to be objective, but it's not always easy. It's often hard to separate being objective and any other opinions I might have.
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Atheism is simply a philosophical worldview...so is Theism, Agnosticism, Deism, Materialism, Ignosticism and so many others...you based your atheism on what you feel science shows you...atheism is not a natural position of science as science has nothing to say about the existence or non existence of God. Religion is also not the same as being a Theist...you can be religious and be an atheist and be a theist without being religious..and pretty much everything in-between. Science, if anything, promotes an agnostic perspective rather than any definitive position on the existence or not existence of God. We can't even decide on an universally accepted definition of God, let alone test for one.

Atheism isn't a social construct it is a philosophical one, but some social constructs incorporate atheism (others incorporate other philosophical constructs or a combination of them) ...we have examples in Socio-Political constructs and Socio-Religious constructs. My example of the difference is personally I am agnostic (philosophical construct) and Secular (social construct).
 
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dirtychinchilla said:
Hahahahah I'd love it if someone (preferably Castiel) found a note from Jesus saying just that.
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Not so much Jesus, but:

Genesis 1:28

28 God blessed them, and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth and subdue it; and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the air and over every living thing that moves upon the earth.”

might suffice. ;)
 
I go with my wife, she asked me to go with her when we met. I class myself as a fortean and thus probably agnostic but I have an interest in religion and have seen the good that the church we go to has done in and around Nottingham. In 13 years I've never been pressured into anything, I struggle to understand the rabid hatred when I consider the context I experience "the church".

I've honestly only ever seen them try to help people, beit soup runs, furniture aid, drug and debt counseling. I spent 2 years serving food to homeless people every 4th Friday night, you dont know what you have till you meet peoole who literally have nothing and every single one of them would say the Nottingham churches were at the very front of the organisations that were offering help.

Like I say, I dont really get the rabid hate.
 
LOAM said:
I go with my wife, she asked me to go with her when we met. I class myself as a fortean and thus probably agnostic but I have an interest in religion and have seen the good that the church we go to has done in and around Nottingham. In 13 years I've never been pressured into anything, I struggle to understand the rabid hatred when I consider the context I experience "the church".

I've honestly only ever seen them try to help people, beit soup runs, furniture aid, drug and debt counseling. I spent 2 years serving food to homeless people every 4th Friday night, you dont know what you have till you meet peoole who literally have nothing and every single one of them would say the Nottingham churches were at the very front of the organisations that were offering help.

Like I say, I dont really get the rabid hate.
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I know the church here is much more liberal and around the world some things are slowly changing, but if just been watching Catfish, the tv series. There's a gay chap in it who ending up hating himself because he was fat and gay. Being gay wasn't acceptable in his culture, in the US. It's things like this that really drive me insane.
 
dirtychinchilla said:
I know the church here is much more liberal and around the world some things are slowly changing, but if just been watching Catfish, the tv series. There's a gay chap in it who ending up hating himself because he was fat and gay. Being gay wasn't acceptable in his culture, in the US. It's things like this that really drive me insane.
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Being fat isn't acceptable in our culture...for many people neither is being gay...it has little to do with religion specifically, and everything to do with common social prejudices....often this is reflected in religion and sometimes perpetrated by, but when the people themselves begin to accept such then you find the constructs they surround themselves with do also. US Culture is a highly divisive one in any case, any difference can make you a target for prejudice, colour, sexuality, wealth, heredity, employment, residence, nationality and so on...Churches can be drivers for acceptance just as much as a driver for prejudice, it depends on the society in which it flourishes and the congregations which determine the nature of the Church.
 
Castiel said:
So neither you nor Hurfdurf understand the point being made here by either Freefaller or myself ...IT IS NOT A LITERAL COMPARISON OF SCIENCE WITH RELIGION, but of the attitudes of how people accept things based on trust of others and not their own objective knowledge or understanding. No one said religion is the same a science..that was Angillions misunderstanding, nothing more.

Can we be any clearer than that.

The irony of one group accusing others of deception, disingenuity and prejudice while they are basically doing the same astounds me tbh...
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This is some weird thing that transcends into solipsism about how we can never truly know anything. I understand basic science and basic scientific method, therefore when scientists make claims, supported by peer reviewed studies, I listen. There is a world of difference between believing scientific basic tenants and trusting its ever evolving findings and trusting in "faith" and to compare the two is disingenuous at best.
 
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