Did you agree with the Strike today?

[MookJong]

I used to agree, but having dated 2 teachers now... both secondary school teachers I can promise you that the work load is ridiculous. The problem is that unless the school is well off then most teachers will have no assistant, so all jobs have to be done by them. Actual classroom face to face teaching accounts for only about half the actual workload required.

Apart from lesson planning, you have performance and actions plans for EVERY child... you have to sort out problem with disruptive pupils, which can be a nightmare... calling parents, meeting parents... who are often as obnoxious as their spawn!

In an average day they were in at approx. 7.30- 8.00 am just so that they had time to get things sorted for 9am start of the day.... the school day for pupils ends at approx. 3.30 but for teachers its at least 6pm at the very earliest you can get out, as you need to set up tomorrows work, photocopy and mark and so on.... if you left early you would either HAVE to do it at home or in the morning.

Now don't get me wrong they do have more holidays but if my two ex's are any indication of the profession a lot of that time was spent producing next terms lesson plans, research and correlating guidelines to make sure you were not missing anything out. The lesson plans don't just pop up out of nowhere and in all but the very worst schools its something that seems to change year on year.

Living with a teacher I can assure you this is the reality of the situation. The amount of time and stress spent on dealing with abusive parents is another side that nobody seems to realise.

Her school has gone against the union and decided not to strike today for the sake of the children. However they are totally against the proposed government measures.

 

[Gilly]

But even union members are apathetic these days - workers rights and T&C's will get hammered plenty more before people finally snap and stand up and do something about it. You only have to look at the sheer number of "be thankful you've got a job" or "I have no job security" or "I don't have a good pension" posts on here to see how many people like being a doormat.

Is that what has happened, or is it that public service workers continue to give themselves a bad name? Private sector workers have been through the rounds of redundancies, lack of payrises, pensions changes many times over.

I take a dim view of those people striking to protect a stupidly expensive pension scheme that isn't at all affordable when everyone else is in the same boat. Why should public sector be different simply because it is a different employer?

I really don't understand the problem. Yes, it isn't what was agreed, but if it isn't affordable how can it be justified not making the changes?

 

[Dolph]

Given the appalling results being produced as confirmed by the OECD, I have no sympathy for anyone who supports the status quo in education, and even less for those willing to refuse to educate children in order to defend educating them poorly.

 

[MookJong]

Given the appalling results being produced as confirmed by the OECD, I have no sympathy for anyone who supports the status quo in education, and even less for those willing to refuse to educate children in order to defwnd educating them poorly.

What are the reasons behind these results? This is what has to be asked, as far as I am concerned my partner puts a hell of a lot more into teaching the children in her class than I was ever given in the 80s.

I would say the parenting of children aged 0-5 has a huge effect on their ability to learn once they get into my partners class at 8 or 9. There is only so much stunted development you can reverse. There is one of you and 31 of them...

 

[MookJong]

gah double post

 

[leaskovski]

In an average day they were in at approx. 7.30- 8.00 am just so that they had time to get things sorted for 9am start of the day....

Tick.

for teachers its at least 6pm at the very earliest you can get out, as you need to set up tomorrows work, photocopy and mark and so on.... if you left early you would either HAVE to do it at home or in the morning.

Tick.

Now don't get me wrong they do have more holidays but if my two ex's are any indication of the profession a lot of that time was spent producing next terms lesson plans, research and correlating guidelines to make sure you were not missing anything out. The lesson plans don't just pop up out of nowhere and in all but the very worst schools its something that seems to change year on year.

How many days holiday do they get a year? 25 for me, the Mrs gets more.

Hmm, I think I might suggest she goes into the teaching profession if she gets made redundant (been put at risk). She would be doing the same hours and get more job satisfaction being able to see those kids thrive.

 

[Irish_Tom]

Given the appalling results being produced as confirmed by the OECD, I have no sympathy for anyone who supports the status quo in education, and even less for those willing to refuse to educate children in order to defend educating them poorly.

Has it ever occurred to you that supporting, rather than disrupting teachers might improve things?

Also, I doubt there are many (any) people supporting the status quo – to paraphrase Graham Stuart MP:

"It is important that you are prepared to improve the drivers within the system in order better to align them with the goals. I think there is cross-party consensus on the goals; the question is whether we have the right mechanics in the system to drive those goals."

There are very few people that believe Gove's policies are the right mechanics.*


*I was going to say very few education professionals but actually the only people that actually seem to agree with Gove are Tories who shared his experience of schooling.

 

[Dolph]

Has it ever occurred to you that supporting, rather than disrupting teachers might improve things?

Also, I doubt there are many (any) people supporting the status quo – to paraphrase Graham Stuart MP:

"It is important that you are prepared to improve the drivers within the system in order better to align them with the goals. I think there is cross-party consensus on the goals; the question is whether we have the right mechanics in the system to drive those goals."

There are very few people that believe Gove's policies are the right mechanics.*


*I was going to say very few education professionals but actually the only people that actually seem to agree with Gove are Tories who shared his experience of schooling.

All the people involved in the most recent assessment were schooled under the last government during a time of massively increased funding and focus in many respects on what the educational professionals wanted.

We have dumbed down our system and generally failed everyone in a race to the mediocre. Allowing that to continue is a terrible idea. Gove's unpopularity with the vested interests isn't a failure.

And just for the record. ..http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/education-23435095

 

[Raumarik]

Is that what has happened, or is it that public service workers continue to give themselves a bad name? Private sector workers have been through the rounds of redundancies, lack of payrises, pensions changes many times over.

I take a dim view of those people striking to protect a stupidly expensive pension scheme that isn't at all affordable when everyone else is in the same boat. Why should public sector be different simply because it is a different employer?

I really don't understand the problem. Yes, it isn't what was agreed, but if it isn't affordable how can it be justified not making the changes?

+1 and I'm a public sector worker.

 

[Hades]

To use the age-old argument so often touted against teachers – it sounds like you should find a different job.

After all, it's really easy (or so we're led to believe).

You obviously missed the part of my post that said I had just moved jobs. Yes it is very easy. In fact I'm now with my 4th employer and have moved each time to reduce hours, increase money, experience or prospects. I am quite mobile in terms of employer (not location although prepared to travel 1.5 hours each direction) and rather than stamp my feet I have a sensible conversation with my employer before handing my notice in and then make a decision based on my current role and potential offer from another employer. It has long been clear to me that this is the nature of the industry I am in. Accordingly I am considering longer term options of moving industry or starting my own business. This will require lifestyle changes.

I cannot see why a teacher shouldn't also do the same?

Many if the teachers at my local school are very poor. The headmaster is a limp wristed, spineless, wet liberal who is doing nothing to bring discipline to the school. He appears to be biding his time until retirement. As a result of bulling my son has recently been to hospital and the school is shrugging it.off.

Unless someone can explain to me how teachers have it so hard they have to withdraw their labour I'm afraid I can't support them.

 

[wesimmo]

Assuming a 365 day year, you work for only 195 days a year. So, if we disregard the 28 days paid annual leave that full time workers are entilted to, what do you do in the other 142 days?

If you worked in England, outside London, or Wales then your pay range is from £21,804 to £31,868.

Let's say you worked 08:00-18:00 5 days a week. That's 50 hours/week, or 195 days x 10 hours = 1,950 hours. With a £26,836 ((21804+31868)/2) salary that's just over £13.76/hour - over double the minmum wage.

Doesn't seem that bad, if you ask me.

Salary and hours information taken from here: http://www.education.gov.uk/get-into-teaching/salary/pay-and-benefits

I've not read this entire thread, but just in case nobody has yet addressed this point.....

Working 08:00-18:00 5 days a week? My sister has recently quit teaching due to all the crap that comes with the job these days.

But, I can assure you she never worked those hours, she'd be in before that and out later than that. Sunday's were often spent marking and evenings spent fine tuning the lesson plans for the following day.

Anyone who thinks that teachers just work in the classroom is badly mistaken.

And, if like her, you work in a deprived area where the kids don't give a damn and the parents give less of a damn then the hours you work in the classroom are long hours!

 

[do_ron_ron]

No. I disagree with teachers striking in the same way I disagree with firefights striking.



That cost should be passed to the parents.

Why? School is not a baby sitting service as some seem to think. People are inconvenienced by other strikers but you don't say people should be reimbursed.

 

[Deleted member 66701]

Is that what has happened, or is it that public service workers continue to give themselves a bad name? Private sector workers have been through the rounds of redundancies, lack of payrises, pensions changes many times over.

I agree - but what have they tried to do about it? DId they organise and fight it or did they roll over and take it like a good little serf?

I take a dim view of those people striking to protect a stupidly expensive pension scheme that isn't at all affordable when everyone else is in the same boat. Why should public sector be different simply because it is a different employer?

But it is affordable - and it was reformed recently (2005 or 2007 I think) to make it exactly that. To come after the pensions again after the recent agreement is bad faith on the part of the government.

 

[do_ron_ron]

Given the appalling results being produced as confirmed by the OECD, I have no sympathy for anyone who supports the status quo in education, and even less for those willing to refuse to educate children in order to defend educating them poorly.

It was this Govt. that got rid of the General Teaching Council in England. In Scotland they get poorly performing teachers to undergo work to bring them back up to scratch or eventually sack them(remove them from the Register which is the same thing) if they show no improvement.

 

[Irish_Tom]

All the people involved in the most recent assessment were schooled under the last government during a time of massively increased funding and focus in many respects on what the educational professionals wanted.

We have dumbed down our system and generally failed everyone in a race to the mediocre. Allowing that to continue is a terrible idea. Gove's unpopularity with the vested interests isn't a failure.

And just for the record. ..http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/education-23435095

To counter the OECD report on Adult Skills it's worth pointing out that last year The Learning Curve, which takes into account all of the major international rankings and reports, placed the UK 6th in the world and 2nd in Europe.

There are huge discrepancies between all of these reports so I wouldn't put all your faith in just one, even if it is the most recent.

I'm not suggesting The Learning Curve is the be-all and end-all either, I'm just saying there are many ways to represent and interpret the data.

Equally for the record, many teachers are in favour of performance related pay, just not in the guise that the current government are trying to implement. As I said in a previous thread (which you ignored) the NUT and NASUWT have proposed PRP frameworks which have been vetoed by the current government.

There's just no negotiation whatsoever.

Snip!

I was being flippant.

However, seeing as you have just moved jobs, surely you're in no position to complain about the commute, working hours or lack of holiday – that was your choice.

The difference with teachers is the government keep moving the goalposts when it comes to pay and conditions. Bar changing career (not job) there is little teachers can do, especially when the government aren't prepared to negotiate.



As an aside: I have a real issue with this government and the media taking the lowest performing minority of any area, whether it be education, the NHS, immigration or welfare and perpetuation a myth that this minority is representative of the whole.

Last year there were 111 secondary schools which failed to reach the 'floor', a KPI that stipulates a minimum of 35% of students achieving five GCSEs at grade C or above.

That sounds like a large number but it only represents 3.5% of all secondary schools in the country.

No one wants even a single school to fall below 'the floor' and I'm sure everyone will agree with me that 'the floor' seems like quite a low target.

We should definitely be trying to improve those figures.

However, if you listen to Gove and most of the press, that percentage is more like 96.5%…

 

[do_ron_ron]

All the people involved in the most recent assessment were schooled under the last government during a time of massively increased funding and focus in many respects on what the educational professionals wanted.


We have dumbed down our system and generally failed everyone in a race to the mediocre. Allowing that to continue is a terrible idea. Gove's unpopularity with the vested interests isn't a failure.

And just for the record. ..http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/education-23435095

The problem was bringing in an American failed system(Clinton era) of testing. As I predicted at the time and on this site, teachers will be forced to teach to pass tests and not to educate and pupils would suffer.
The system was wrong. Any teacher will tell you how well or badly a child is doing, they do not need tests.

 

[No1newts]

My wife is a teacher so I see some of it first hand.

The changes that they are pushing are only punishing good teachers. Longer hours, less pay those good teachers are losing the desire to work harder and put in the extra work. My Missus works 2 hours every night on top of her working day and 3-5 hours on a Sunday. She is doing a 10hr day and is not paid well for the privilege of that.

I'm telling her to stop working on an evening and **** them, unfortunately she cares too much. Instead of protesting all teachers should just stop working the additional hours for free and then **** themselves laughing as the whole system collapses as most of it is ran on good will. That will prove their point better than any protest and show that they don't have it easy as many protest.

As it the industry will continue losing good people, looking forward to my wife getting a new job which will be on more money, not have to waste her evenings and can have a life outside work again.

 

[Gilly]

Why? School is not a baby sitting service as some seem to think. People are inconvenienced by other strikers but you don't say people should be reimbursed.

Schools are adamant that parents cannot change plans to suit themselves, to the point where there is a fine in place if they do. Why should the reverse be OK? Schools issue a start/finish time and they issue term dates.

If parents have to pay extra for childcare so that they can work whilst the teachers do not, and the teachers are not being paid for the duration of the strike, why should the authorities retain the money?

 

[Dolph]

To counter the OECD report on Adult Skills it's worth pointing out that last year The Learning Curve, which takes into account all of the major international rankings and reports, placed the UK 6th in the world and 2nd in Europe.

There are huge discrepancies between all of these reports so I wouldn't put all your faith in just one, even if it is the most recent.

I'm not suggesting The Learning Curve is the be-all and end-all either, I'm just saying there are many ways to represent and interpret the data.

Equally for the record, many teachers are in favour of performance related pay, just not in the guise that the current government are trying to implement. As I said in a previous thread (which you ignored) the NUT and NASUWT have proposed PRP frameworks which have been vetoed by the current government.

There's just no negotiation whatsoever.

Apologies if I missed the previous post, I don't get on every day and don't like necroing threads.

With regards to the union proposed prp frameworks, were they not the ones that still included tenure and kept the nstional pay framework? Because those are two red lines that cannot be allowed to continue as they have no place in a functioning labour market. I think they also included pland to treat people without a formal teaching qualification as always inferior regardless of what else they bring, which is also substantially flawed.

 

[Dolph]

The problem was bringing in an American failed system(Clinton era) of testing. As I predicted at the time and on this site, teachers will be forced to teach to pass tests and not to educate and pupils would suffer.
The system was wrong. Any teacher will tell you how well or badly a child is doing, they do not need tests.

I agree with you in that the league tables are poorly designed, leading to undesirable structural incentives. That doesn't mean that rating performance or comparing it is wrong, it means the method is wrong. I outlined a more balanced approach in the other thread.