GP Clinical Exam: How Is It Bias Against Minority?!

Mr Jones

Mr Jones

Mr Jones

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Was reading the news this morning and came across this:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-24572522

BBC News said:
UK ethnic minority doctors are four times more likely than white candidates to fail their clinical GP exam, the General Medical Council has found.

The review into 5,000 candidates was ordered after ethnic minority students complained the exam was unfair.
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I am honestly confused as to how an exam can be bias against ethnic minority, especially something such as a clinical exam? Anyone done a clinical GP exam and can share the type of questions you came across? Do you think there's some racial specific questions?

From my view, if one is looking at pass rate and picking out ethnicity, then this can flipped for the opposite to other exams e.g. GCSE Exams are bias for Chinese pupils?
Guardian News said:
Chinese pupils continue to be the highest attaining ethnic group with 78.5% attaining five or more A*-C grades at GCSE or equivalent including English and maths.
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http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2012/feb/10/gcse-results-ethnicity-school-meals
Does this mean non-Chinese pupils should complain that the exams are bias against them?!

Doesn't make sense and does feel like it's an excuse for a group to use because they're not cut out for this specific type of exam - be it having to be studious or reading beyond the theoretical stuff i.e. General experience.
 
I've just read this and don't understand the problem. If you're not capable of passing the test then you're not fit for the job surely? I wouldn't want someone who wasn't up to standard as my GP.

What next, can't pass the driving test so claim its unfair?
 
Saw this on Breakfast. Looks like the ultra-liberals are annoyed that GPs are expected to be able to speak English clearly, they think the British public are racist because they don't like it when they can't understand their doctor.

I mean, I'm sure if a British doctor wanted to practice in say, France, their lack of French language skills would prove no barrier whatsoever.
 
ElliorR said:
I've just read this and don't understand the problem. If you're not capable of passing the test then you're not fit for the job surely? I wouldn't want someone who wasn't up to standard as my GP.

What next, can't pass the driving test so claim its unfair?
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THIS.
 
Some people want equality of outcome not opportunity, and are happy and willing to dumb down to achieve it.
 
I've personally had an experience dealing with a dermatologist who could not speak English to a satisfactory level and it was very frustrating as he did not understand what I was explaining.

This wasn't just my interpretation of what happened as a nurse went to get another doctor as he wasn't making any sense!!
 
If it is a failure to meet a requirement regarding English language skills, either written or spoken, they can sod off. I'm not having my or my families lives put at risk because a GP, or any other medical professional, is unable to communicate properly in the language of the nation they want work in.
scorza said:
Saw this on Breakfast. Looks like the ultra-liberals are annoyed that GPs are expected to be able to speak English clearly, they think the British public are racist because they don't like it when they can't understand their doctor.

I mean, I'm sure if a British doctor wanted to practice in say, France, their lack of French language skills would prove no barrier whatsoever.
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Luckystrike123 said:
I've personally had an experience dealing with a dermatologist who could not speak English to a satisfactory level and it was very frustrating as he did not understand what I was explaining.

This wasn't just my interpretation of what happened as a nurse went to get another doctor as he wasn't making any sense!!
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This, in a nutshell. If a GP can't adequately communicate in English how is he or she expected to accurately diagnose symptoms.
 
ElliorR said:
I've just read this and don't understand the problem. If you're not capable of passing the test then you're not fit for the job surely? I wouldn't want someone who wasn't up to standard as my GP.

What next, can't pass the driving test so claim its unfair?
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+1
 
Dolph said:
Some people want equality of outcome not opportunity, and are happy and willing to dumb down to achieve it.
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Agreed, however in the name of statistics:

The disparity seems to be in certain minorities (non white), so a good statistical test would be to see if white non-native english speakers have a similar fail rate.

If the non-white group stands out in that test you can try correlating the examiners ethnicity to them.

Even if you do find a correlation racial bias can't be prooved as it may be a cultural thing (e.g. chinese students do better at GCSE because they have a cultural leaning towards hard study).
 
Luckystrike123 said:
I've personally had an experience dealing with a dermatologist who could not speak English to a satisfactory level and it was very frustrating as he did not understand what I was explaining.

This wasn't just my interpretation of what happened as a nurse went to get another doctor as he wasn't making any sense!!
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Then just walk out. That's what I've done on several previous occasions. I've also asked for a different doctor when I was in hospital last year with kidney stones. When it comes to my health, I can't begin to care whose sensitivities I hurt or being PC in any way. If you can't speak English to an agreeable level, scram.
 
Dr Gerada implies that you are better equipped to pass the exam if you grew up in this country with the NHS -

We also know that this is a culturally specific exam - it stands to reason if you are born and brought up in this country, within the NHS, that you have an advantage," she added.

"If I go to India and sit an exam designed for doctors to practise in India, I will be at a disadvantage.
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So it has nothing to do with being racist, is has to do with the candidates sitting the exam not being fully prepared.... So if I fail an exam, I can shout up the racism card as opposed to me just not putting the work in to prepare for it? :confused:


If language is the barrier then improve your language skills (a necessity if you are in the medical profession IMHO). If it's not language then it must be your technique. Study more and practice it.


There is NOTHING racist about this exam that I can glean form the article over and above someone using it as a "cheat" to try and leverage a pass by "threatening" to shout the racist card.
 
ElliorR said:
I've just read this and don't understand the problem. If you're not capable of passing the test then you're not fit for the job surely? I wouldn't want someone who wasn't up to standard as my GP.

What next, can't pass the driving test so claim its unfair?
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Well put.
 
It would be good if they differentiated between people from ethnic minorities born here and people born elsewhere. I mean people for whom English isn't their first language, who grew up in another culture.. that would be understandable.

People who have been British from birth but happen to be in an ethnic minority group - that is less understandable. Do medical schools in the UK lessen the academic requirements for admission for people from ethnic minorities?
 
Richie said:
Dr Gerada implies that you are better equipped to pass the exam if you grew up in this country with the NHS -



So it has nothing to do with being racist, is has to do with the candidates sitting the exam not being fully prepared.... So if I fail an exam, I can shout up the racism card as opposed to me just not putting the work in to prepare for it? :confused:
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No I think she's saying it is racist (or discriminates against other cultures at least) but that it needs to be like that to be able to effectively assess future GPs.
 
ElliorR said:
I've just read this and don't understand the problem. If you're not capable of passing the test then you're not fit for the job surely? I wouldn't want someone who wasn't up to standard as my GP.

What next, can't pass the driving test so claim its unfair?
Click to expand...

Dolph said:
Some people want equality of outcome not opportunity, and are happy and willing to dumb down to achieve it.
Click to expand...

This 100%.

It's the same with all the "equality" forms you have to fill in when applying for jobs or university or whatever. It doesn't matter whether the person is white / black / straight / gay / male / female / disabled / muslim - just take the best person for the job. If it then turns out that all the people you hired were disabled black lesbian women then who cares, you hired them because they were the best candidate not because of what categories they were!
 
The problem with this exam is it appears to determine if you are capable of being a GP in the UK, unfortunately some candidates, whether local or foreign born will not be capable of such work, if they fail the exam and they are of particular racial grouping, they assume the exam is faulty, rather than themselves.

The exam in the story of the chap who after failing 4 times appealed, managed to pass on a fifth time, then blames the exam for costing him 18 months of money. He misses the entire concept of him being unsuitable for the role. In theory they should introduce a similar exam for all consultant roles when the role is entered, or a role is changed, it would forcibly re-educate some doctor at all levels, and remind them of basic clinic skills and the importance.
 
dowie said:
It would be good if they differentiated between people from ethnic minorities born here and people born elsewhere. I mean people for whom English isn't their first language, who grew up in another culture.. that would be understandable.

People who have been British from birth but happen to be in an ethnic minority group - that is less understandable. Do medical schools in the UK lessen the academic requirements for admission for people from ethnic minorities?
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Why should we need to differentiate where they come from.

The test is the test, if you can't do it, for what ever reason, you clearly are not suitable.

That's why we have tests, you know, to find out if you are suitable to do something.
 
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