If you guys ever find yourself venturing up to Manchester then I'll lay on a dem for you. I'd be interested in your opinions.
Looking to replace my AV Amp
- Thread starter Haze
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If you guys ever find yourself venturing up to Manchester then I'll lay on a dem for you. I'd be interested in your opinions.
While this is true to a degree, in the world of AV receivers (which aren't just amps) there are huge differences between them. An amplifier by definition should just amplify the signal, like you say poor quality amplification will result in audible differences, however this topic is about AV receivers which contain an entire arsenal of sound processing wizardry and vary greatly not only between manufacturer but between each model as well. As this IS a topic about AV receivers, isn't the whole Amps/cables debate a tad redundant?
Sure, sound processing will make a difference, though most of it is still somewhat controllable. My point was more that the differences between amps or AV receivers is greatly exaggerated.
I'm not sure how the sound processing makes the whole cable argument redundant though, people still claim their magic cables influences the "musicality" of their sound system.
Then you've got people suggesting that the table their CD player or amp is on influences the sound quality of the equipment. This has gone beyond arguing equipment and straight in to lunacy.
You are attempting to make out that audio is so highly complicated that it cannot be measured. This is a cop out, and you are essentially trying to use science to back up your claims rather than use it to show what's true and what isn't.
I can conceive that it's a *possibility* though realistically it's highly unlikely, it's already possible to be able to record audio and analyse it to such a high standard that your claims are jut not valid.
I understand why you understand the science but hear the differences, but that's not an argument to validate that there are differences. Being able to hear differences is not an indication that they are there in the way you are suggesting, and I don't refute that there *are* differences, just that a difference is degradation, not enhancement.
When I am talking about hearing the difference, I am talking about 2 cables of differing construction, but are adequately specified for the the situation, the issue generally here is that adequate cable is not at all expensive, the claims often surround highly expensive cables which infer magic properties to enhance sound.
The digital era has somewhat laid rest to these sort of things, because analogue degradation isn't inherently obvious like digital degradation is, whereby if a digital signal is being degraded, it's plainly obvious what's happening.
Due to analogue audio signals being the actual sound wave being transmitted, rather than a sine wave that is encoded and decoded as binary, analogue degradation is no where near as obvious, and very easy to do without it becoming very obvious that the signal is being impacted negatively (read, introducing inaccuracies in to the audio).
This hasn't stopped people and companies trying to sell ridiculously expensive cables for digital signal situations, though, and the same claims about analogue are being used for digital systems, like HDMI cables influencing image quality, digital audio cables influencing audio quality, USB and Ethernet cables influencing the quality of the media they are transporting.
These fancy cables are not taken seriously or even accepted in the high end computing industry at all, and never have been which should be enough to demonstrate that it's a con within the AV industry.
The examples of different bits of kit really don't matter. It could be two CD players, or two amps, or two cables. If you were involved in a blind test then you wouldn't know which the models were, so I don't see how it changes anything in this particular part of the discussion either.
This reads as such a massive cop out, like you're saying the equipment they use for double blind testing "changes" the sound anyway. It's not much of a surprise you'd take that stance since you believe in the snake oil of the AV industry and the magic cables and equipment claims that are yet to be proven.
These weren't really widely held beliefs, it's just a myth that they were.
As for measuring audio equipment, you're the one making extraordinary claims that you are not able to adequately back up. "I experience it" is not valid or adequate proof because of how fickle human perception is.
I didn't say there's a secret, it's just making it obvious how human perception is incredibly fickle and how people will perceive something different based on how it was presented. They are told it's different so they see a difference.
This is how a lot of it works in the AV industry and why people fail double blind tests, because when you make it impossible for someone to *know* what's what with regards to equipment and they don't know when things are being changed, it messes up their perception and they lose their "golden ears".
To point out, I'm not saying cables don't make any difference at all, and hooking up your system with bell wire will be enough. I'm saying that if your cable is thick enough, and it doesn't degrade the sound, then that's the best you're going to get.
These magic cables will not enhance the sound, and if there IS a difference they will be degrading the signal to make it audibly different.
Why would it? You're the one making the extraordinary claims here. Does my PC sound any better on a different surface? Do my monitors reproduce colours more accurately if I put them on a more expensive desk?
This is the sort of thing that isn't even worth getting in to at all, a table and a mains block won't influence sound quality, and it's madness for anyone to seriously suggest that a table will change audio properties of amps, CD player decks or anything else that is "piping" the sound. Sure, speakers can resonate through tables they're sitting on, but that's not at all the same thing. The mains block thing is just utter madness.
The onus is on you to prove that these cables are magic and can influence sound quality, as it goes you're the one making extraordinary claims that are contradictory to the physics of electronics.
People who claim that cables DO influence the musicality or enhance the sound quality "no" jack about what they're talking about to be blunt about it.
Lucid is already suggesting he rejects double blind testing which demonstrates he doesn't care that it can be proven to be false, he believes anyway.
Poor speaker cable will degrade sound, fancy magic cables also tend to degrade sound as they make them of a gauge to ensure that the sound is degraded so that people might hear *difference* but that's all cable does, it degrades not enhances.
It's interesting that you use quotes around the word musicality. What's your interpretation of what that word means in the context of describing a Hi-Fi system?
Yes, you wrote a lot. But I'm going to hold off replying until you can explain what you think musicality means.
Really? That's your understanding of how the word musicality is used and what it means to someone listening to music... Is that right?
Soldato
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Why not just put this whole debate to bed? Do YOU notice a difference? If not, don't waste your money. If you get enjoyment from spending more on cables, buy them.
I don't buy into the whole mystical cable thing, so I run basic 2.5mm copper cables to connect my relatively old and mid range Onkyo TX-605 to my equally mid range Wharfedale Diamond 9 setup. I'm happy with it and have no real desire to upgrade at the moment.
If someone wants to spend £10k on a kettle lead, let them get on with it.
The only time I have issue with this is when people with no experience are persuaded to jump in and buy expensive gear, without testing it themselves or knowing whether they need it - to me it's like PCW trying to sell overpriced warranties to pensioners and persuading them they definitely need it.
I don't drink really expensive wine either, but it doesn't mean people who do are throwing money away - I just don't appreciate the difference or get additional enjoyment from spending more, so I don't.
I don't buy into the whole mystical cable thing, so I run basic 2.5mm copper cables to connect my relatively old and mid range Onkyo TX-605 to my equally mid range Wharfedale Diamond 9 setup. I'm happy with it and have no real desire to upgrade at the moment.
If someone wants to spend £10k on a kettle lead, let them get on with it.
The only time I have issue with this is when people with no experience are persuaded to jump in and buy expensive gear, without testing it themselves or knowing whether they need it - to me it's like PCW trying to sell overpriced warranties to pensioners and persuading them they definitely need it.
I don't drink really expensive wine either, but it doesn't mean people who do are throwing money away - I just don't appreciate the difference or get additional enjoyment from spending more, so I don't.
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I understand that audiophiles will often misuse the term "musicality", hence why I put it in quotation marks in the first place.
I understand that it's used to refer to the sonic attributes to the sound being produced.
It's starting to seem like you're being picky about things I'm saying to skirt around responding to properly.
I understand that it's used to refer to the sonic attributes to the sound being produced.
It's starting to seem like you're being picky about things I'm saying to skirt around responding to properly.
The argument isn't really that, Lucid, for example shouldn't be buying them, but rather Lucid is making claims that cannot be proven (they are disproven in fact) which is indirectly influencing people TO buy in to the cable hype, as well as trying to confirm any heard differences as being a result of magic cables and not fickle human perception.
Soldato
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My main issue with the whole cable debate is I've never once saw someone buy a super expensive cable and then note it sounded worse than their cheapo cable, there's ALWAYS an improvement, doesn't matter which part of their kit they change, it's always better. I've never once saw someone say they changed to a more expensive cable, didn't like it and kept their cheaper one.
Yes measurements are inherently inaccurate to any degree however we can measure more accurately than we can hear with our own ears... monster cable doesn't improve sound... cable arguments are flawed - as long as you're not using ridiculously thin cable there isn't any difference.
given how tainted a sighted test is its a bit rich... its also a complete cop out, equipment introduced for ABX testing has practically no effect and tbh... you don't necessarily need to introduce further equipment to design some form of double blind a test if you're unconvinced
you seem to be supporting myths/beliefs in this thread rather than questioning them
Speakers yup, old turntables yup... amps, CD players... nope
if people want to treat hi-fi as some magic box and read subjective and frankly flawed reviews using sighted tests then that's fine...
the flaws ought to be abundantly obvious when reviewers in hi-fi, clearly with limited technical knowledge, talk of hdmi cables improving picture quality, affecting colours etc... That's probably one of the most obvious examples for anyone on here - a digital cable simply carrying 1s and 0s... can't possibly affect/improve on the things reviewers mention - its like me claiming the ocuk forum looks nicer since I used a gold plated antenna for my wifi.
Given that we can't actually trust sighted testing which treats the object being tested as some magic box/component blind testing is the way forward... after all its sound quality we're interested in. The reality is that blind testing shows interconnects, speaker cables, fancy CD players, one amp vs another etc.. make no difference - as long as its got the features you want then that's all that matters... modern amps are generally fine, it isn't hard to make an amp, DACs are cheap and mass produced... this stuff isn't rocket science - all you're trying to do is convert a bunch of 1s and 0s into an analogue signal and amplify that signal... that's a problem which can be solved quite easily and relatively inexpensively.
The speakers and the room you're putting the equipment in make the big differences to sound quality.
if you notice a difference in an uncontrolled sighted test then its all a bit meaningless....
Well I bought some RA power cables and extension blocks to take to Italy, to allow some form of spike protection and allow me to adapt from Euro plug to UK....
Once back in the UK I used them, then got around to comparing them to the original supplied leads...... difference was subtle, but I felt the RA leads smoothed the sound and took away some bite and involvement, lost some life....... So I sold them on the bay, putting the money to more worthy upgrades.
Well I bought some RA power cables and extension blocks to take to Italy, to allow some form of spike protection and allow me to adapt from Euro plug to UK....
Once back in the UK I used them, then got around to comparing them to the original supplied leads...... difference was subtle, but I felt the RA leads smoothed the sound and took away some bite and involvement, lost some life....... So I sold them on the bay, putting the money to more worthy upgrades.
There was no difference, you've also used a lot of vague words don't don't really mean anything.
That's a matter of opinion.... and you are in no position to know how my system sounds, what changes it, or what I hear don't hear, perceived or actual.
As is said a little knowledge is dangerous, I've yet to read on a forum anyone that has any more than a self taught half an idea of what we hear or perceive or what item does or doesn't make a difference...
Just a lot of evangelists preaching they know best and more than anyone else, when it most case they are no more than keyboard jockeys spouting something they read elsewhere on the net... And I should take any notice of such??? I think not.
It's not a matter of opinion, your "opinion" isn't informed. A power cable or extension block isn't going to change how your audio sounds.
It just isn't, it has no part in the audio processing chain the same way my monitors' power bricks don't influence the image quality on my screen.
As I said before, you're making extraordinary claims, claims that are in stark contrast to how physics work, so it's up to you to prove it's true, which you can't.
Instead you just go on the attack and tell people to be quiet if they haven't experienced it, which goes to undermine the validity of your "opinions" even more.
It just isn't, it has no part in the audio processing chain the same way my monitors' power bricks don't influence the image quality on my screen.
As I said before, you're making extraordinary claims, claims that are in stark contrast to how physics work, so it's up to you to prove it's true, which you can't.
Instead you just go on the attack and tell people to be quiet if they haven't experienced it, which goes to undermine the validity of your "opinions" even more.
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No, this goes to the heart of the issue. The fact that you don't understand that is really disheartening.
You haven't yet shown that you understand what musicality actually means.
That's a big problem. Because until you "get" what it is that the rest of us are listening for then you'll never understand what we are describing. This isn't an attempt at being evasive. This is about establishing some common experience. Without that, then people like you and people like us have no common ground for discussion. The difference is that we've all been where you are now. So we understand your perspective. But you can't understand ours.
yikes - I thought you were just kidding when you wrote
switching the power lead doesn't 'smooth the sound'... that is just in your head... while you might well have perceived something because you already had the idea that an effect could be perceived its utter nonsense...
Go on then, for argument's sake, you're not being elusive. Enlighten me as to what it "actually" means.